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Author Topic:   Chariots of God (Scripture & Photo Examined)
dwise1
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Member Rating: 5.7


Message 542 of 1310 (766251)
08-15-2015 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by ScottRP
08-15-2015 5:11 PM


No, he is speaking far more clearly than you have.
Please stop embarrassing the good people of Tustin. I am from Santa Ana (born and raised) and returned to Santa Ana a decade ago, but I lived among the good people of Tustin for about 20 years. Please stop embarrassing them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by ScottRP, posted 08-15-2015 5:11 PM ScottRP has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 546 of 1310 (766263)
08-15-2015 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by ScottRP
08-15-2015 8:11 PM


My sincerest apologies to the fine people of Tustin for your willful ignorance.
Soy de Santa Ana!

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 Message 547 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 11:02 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 549 of 1310 (766272)
08-15-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Faith
08-15-2015 11:02 PM


Claro que no. Es el lugar de mi origen. No es condicin temporaria, sino es permanente.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 11:02 PM Faith has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 554 of 1310 (766291)
08-16-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Faith
08-16-2015 9:24 AM


Estar is used for location as in "where something is located". Originally (going way back long before the language ever became Spanish) it would be used with the locative case, but that case's function has been taken over by positional prepositions (eg, in, on, over, under) as in the example we were given: "Est en Balboa Park." The preposition "de" does not indicate location.
Ser is used to indicate origin. It is used with "de" to indicate where something is from, which is quite different from the idea of where something is located. "De" could also indicate motion away from somewhere, though that would more often be used with a verb of motion such as "venir" or "ir".
In the textbook, Cmo se dice ... ?, on page 36 it says:
quote:
Ser is used with the preposition de to indicae origin or possession:
Nosotros somos de Madrid. We are from Madrid.
Es la hija de Pedro. She is Peter's daughter.
In Spanish Grammar, 2/ed, part of the Schaum's Outline Series, the author Conrad Schmitt devotes the whole of Chapter 7 to ser and estar. The second section is ORIGIN VERSUS LOCATION:
quote:
The verb ser (de) is used to express origin: where someone or something is from.
El seor Gonzlez es de Mxico.
Aquellos vinos son de Francia.
. . .
The verb estar is used to express location. Note that whether the location is permanent or temporary the verb estar is always used.
Carlos est ahora en Nueva York.
Madrid est en Espaa.


Both references confirm what we've been saying, that location and place of origin are two entirely different ideas. We could exhaust the rest of the month looking up every other Spanish language grammar, but all that would do would be to confirm what we already know.
Soy de Santa Ana. I am from Santa Ana, having been born and raised here. That is a permanent condition for me that will remain in effect regardless of my current location.
You could also say, "Los soldados son de los EE.UU.", even if some of the soldiers were originally born outside of the USA. This construction expresses origin, both ultimate and proximal.
Estoy en Santa Ana. Yes, I am in Santa Ana. And that is an entirely different idea than where I'm from.
Next, let us discuss how German's cases can change the meaning of a preposition; eg "I" "run" "in" "house":
Accusative: Ich laufe in das Haus.
Dative: Ich laufe in dem Haus.

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 Message 553 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 9:24 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 555 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 12:45 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 558 of 1310 (766298)
08-16-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by Faith
08-16-2015 12:45 PM


Actually, that German example was pertinent to the discussion as an example of separating the idea of location from other ideas, much as ser and estar separate ideas of location and origin.
"Ich laufe ins Haus." means I'm running into the house, whereas "Ich laufe im Haus." means I'm running around inside of the house. Use of the dative case with positional prepositions invokes the older locative case, which indicated location ("im Haus"), whereas use of the accusative with the same preposition indicates motion in relation to the object, such as transitioning into the house ("ins Haus").
The Proto-Indo-European is supposed to have had no prepositions; didn't need them since the 8 cases served that purpose. The pattern that we see is for some cases to get absorbed into another case along with the increase in use of prepositions. For example, Anglo-Saxon (AKA Old English, extant until after 1066) still had cases, but at that time the instrumental case was being absorbed into the dative. Then after the Norman Conquest, English became very heavily French-ified, pretty much killing case in English among other things *.
It makes life a lot easier to read a language that still uses cases. I remember a few times in French class where the word order was a bit strange and I couldn't begin to figure out who was the subject and who was the object. The "problem" for students is that they have a number of endings to learn, one of the things that Mark Twain lampooned in his essay (grammatical gender being the other, but many languages have that too, so German is not special).
As for German not getting it, of course not, since they are native speakers which makes it all perfectly natural. Native speakers of English are the same way about their language. And when a native speaker is trying to teach his language to a foreigner, he will not understand why the beginning student makes the kind of stupid mistakes that he keeps making. That is why my Russian prof maintained that a first-year language teacher should not be a native speaker.
To illustrate, there's a joke in Robin Williams' "Moscow on the Hudson" that I think most of the audience didn't get. It caught my attention, because years earlier a Yugoslavian friend had said the same thing about her mouth hurting at the end of English class.
I don't think that Mark Twain was making fun of German itself, but rather of English speakers trying to learn German and the funny ideas about language that they carry with them.

Footnote:
  • About 25% of English vocabulary is still based on Anglo-Saxon, with much of the remaining 75% coming from French. That is why it's easier for an English speaker to learn French vocabulary (and Spanish because of similarities with the French) than German vocabulary. At the same time, the English verb system is still very Germanic, so it's much easier to learn the German verb system than the French, Spanish, or Italian.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 555 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 12:45 PM Faith has replied

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    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5952
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 1151 of 1310 (769361)
    09-20-2015 1:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 1150 by ScottRP
    09-19-2015 11:33 PM


    Which god? Which theology about "god"?
    Review Pascal's Wager. Which of the near-infinite number of gods? Which of the somewhat-but-still-widely numbered theologies of each of those near-infinite number of gods?
    For a discussion of fundamentalist Christians' "After-life Insurance" argument, please refer to my page, DWISE1'S CREATION / EVOLUTION PAGE: After-Life Insurance.
    From decades ago, I remember a statement by British philosopher Bertrand Russel. It addressed a fundamental difference between Protestant and Catholic thought (quoted purely from memory):
    quote:
    When a Catholic becomes a free-thinker, he becomes an atheist. But when a Protestant becomes a free-thinker, he simply creates a new church.
    There are many understandings of "God". You are wagering on your own singular idea of "God." What are the odds that you are right?
    Associated with your own particular understanding of "God" is an entire intricately intertwined theology about "heaven" and about "hell". Compounded with the odds that your understandings of "God" are right, what about the odds that your own particular understanding of "heaven" and of "hell"?
    So then what are the odds for your particular position?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1150 by ScottRP, posted 09-19-2015 11:33 PM ScottRP has replied

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    dwise1
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    Posts: 5952
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.7


    (1)
    Message 1221 of 1310 (769605)
    09-22-2015 9:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 1220 by Coragyps
    09-22-2015 8:47 PM


    I read that the Nevada Gaming Commission investigated and closed down Pascal's Casino. Pascal promised everybody a sure bet, that they couldn't lose, but instead he was cleaning everybody out, taking them for all that they had. A shameless con job!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1220 by Coragyps, posted 09-22-2015 8:47 PM Coragyps has not replied

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5952
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 1294 of 1310 (770023)
    09-28-2015 10:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 1288 by ringo
    09-27-2015 2:32 PM


    You've lost your keys.
    And hopefully he never will find them, because that kid should not be behind the wheel of a car. Though I would like to be present to watch him try to explain to the police officer that he had to repeatedly swerve wildly in order to avoid hitting spirits in chariots.
    Though perhaps then he will finally start receiving the help he needs.

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