Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

I'm sorry everyone. Upon further reflection I realize that the previous post was a little childish of me! Sorry all.

Hi RoR,Thanks for being honest and reflecting on you post, very mature of you and makes our job easier.And of course you did mean to say 'I'm sorry everyone, and Peter in particular' Thanks again.AdminBrian.

Now that you've acknoledged a "moral world" whose code of morals do you ascribe to?Sort of smacks of that old tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I'm assuming the greastest commandment isn't on your agenda.Also I'm assuming some harm is coming your way, so I'll warn you to take heed of the glad tidings as read in verse. The beauty of, if's. I'm assuming you're guessing or you have intimate knowledge of God to say such things about Him. Either way, to make those statements you'd violate a moral code as seen in verse. See above warning about possible harm coming your way.One question though, if God is all knowing then why does He ask; "Where art thou" when Adam and Eve are hiding in the garden?

Abshalom,Hmmmm,Somewhat out of character, you misinterpret what I said with: Since this bears, to my eye at least, no resemblance at all to anything I said or think, may we regard it as confirmation of the biblical hypothesis that our thoughts are generally haunted?Stephen

Stephen:In Message #34 you worry that, "Somewhat out of character, [Abshalom at Message #17] misinterprets what [Stephen at Message #16] said with: "So now RaSBey provides an analogy wherein anyone who questions the Bible is portrayed as some sort of Demonic Trial Attorney 'lying to, confusing, and distracting' the Almighty Inquisitor General (in this analogy the 'judge' is clearly Stephen), who as 'judge' sits on his High Throne for the sole purpose of determining Truth!"Okay, it's entirely possible I may have taken your words out of context. Let's look back and see.Revenge of Reason begins the topic with:"Do Christians even reflect on the things the Bible says? Take for example the thought process of this:
1) God creates Earth, man, animals, etc.
2) God tells Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge
3) Duped by Satan they do in fact eat from the tree
4) Mankind is punished by God and original sin is introduced
5) God later appears on Earth in the shape of a man on the cross to absolve this sin.
The question is, why would God do this? Why would he need to die on the cross to convince himself to absolve original sin? What would be the purpose? Does the bible mention anything about God having multiple personalities?"Stephen, in what I believe is your first response to Revenge of Reason's questions, you reply in Message #16:"Christians present God as unable (or unwilling) to speak. Effectively dumb. So then, guys like you end up with questions you try to answer by trying to 'go figure'."First of all, Stephen, I've had hundreds of folks who declare themselves Christians assure me they carry on direct communications with one or more of their gods. Some, like you, seem to prefer going directly to "the Father," while others claim to have their pow wows with "the Son." We don't have any misunderstanding on this point, I think.Stephen, anwering the primary topic questions posed in Revenge of Reason's Message #1, you claim, "The Bible insists that it is essential to ask God, and 'hearken' to His voice, to understand the sorts of questions you raise."So now we have two pricipal participants in the dialogue, the Petitioner and the Deity.Stephen, next you say, "That book [the Bible] portrays an epistemologicl problem you and I and everyone faces, similar to that of a judge trying to get to the truth of a matter."Stephen, here is where I drew the conclusion that you meant the Petitioner (in your example that would be either you, Revenge, or anyone else doing the asking) becomes "a judge trying to get to the truth of the matter."So, essentially maybe I did misrepresent your analogy as Petitioner=Judge=Inquisitor General, but maybe your analogy is rather confusing; ie., the person asking the question in prayer (Petitioner) becomes like a "judge" who all of a sudden is the sole entity responsible for determining the truth.Stephen, if I misinterpretted your analogy, I am sorry; but you may wish to consider that the type of reasoning you're presenting may be part of the problem you're having convincing folks of your scientific methods. I'm not a scientist, and know very little about kosher scientific procedures, but this is how your method appears to me, Stephen:1) There is a species of bird that is very important to me personally (for whatever reason).2) The species appears to be diminishing in number in an area that I have had an opportunity to study and from which I have a series of bird counts that appears to confirm diminishing numbers of the subject species.[At this point please allow me to interject that some investigators might want additional historic information that probably is not available such as bird counts over an extended period of time to see if this particular bird species experienced fluctuating counts in concert with other phenomena like Jet Stream, El Nino, or other climatic or food source conditions.]3) The Bible says I can petition the Lord with prayer in anticipation of possitive results if the petition is made properly, and in conjunction with appropriate tything (I've seen you say).4) I present my petition properly and with the appropriate offerings all in accordance with Biblical protocol.5) Subsequent bird counts indicate steadily increasing numbers of the target species are returning to the studied local.6) I do not cross reference any other data like Jet Stream patterns, El Nino fluctuations, or food source and weather highs and lows.7) I assume that: (a) My prayers are effective, so therefore there is a God; [or (b) I am the master of my universe and can control natural phenomena]. But lest that I get facitious again ...Is this real science? Or is this even real religion? But again ... I'm wandering off track.Stephen, what really got my attention in your Message #16 was this:"There is an 'enemy' lying and confusing and distracting and muddying up the waters. You are inclined to think that you are just thinking, but you are actually being subconsiously manipulated mentally by whispering demons getting you to agree to some anti-god agenda."Now remember, in your analogy you have set yourself up as the "judge trying to get at the truth of the matter." And now that you are in the process of deducing the truth, along comes the "Evil One" lying, confusing, distracting, and muddying up the waters." << Your words, Stephen.So, Stephen, how am I supposed to interpret your analogy if not: "The Bible tells us when asking theological questions to be both the Petitioner and the Judge of Truth, and to beware the Evil One (in the role of a Philadelphia defense lawyer) who will disrupt the proceedings with "lying, confusing, distracting, and muddying up the waters."Stephen, you then tell us that what we will deduce using your theo-scientific methods "could be either true or false. [Are there no other options?] The only way to know is to assume it is true, and take necessary precautions. [What prohibits us from assuming it's false until proven true?] If it is false, you have wasted some time, finding out that it is false. [Why would a finding of fact be a waste of time?] If it is true, your precautions will allow you to know that. [Exactly how do "precautions" serve to determine fact?] But, if it is true and you assume it is false, that's what you mistakenly will conclude. [That last sentence actually makes sense after I read it a couple of times.]Now, to conclude Message #16, you say, "Christians teach that God is 'dumb,' according to the Bible, because they are actually children of the devil, liars, put on earth to confuse the message of the gospel."You've said this or something similar in many postings, Stephen; so at first I just thought you were laying bait. But after reading Message #16 several times, it just adds to my confusion.Somehow or another you are bundling all these concepts together as if only you or persons who use your particular "HD" method will arrive at the correct theological determinations regarding this whole Dune/Star Wars/Voodoo/Essene battle for Creation.In conclusion, if my take on what you present (as you said) " bears ... no resemblance at all to anything (Stephen) said or thinks, may we regard it as confirmation of the biblical hypothesis that our thoughts are generally haunted (?)"Your thoughts, my thoughts, or both? Shit, Stephen, you have me so confused, I don't really care anymore.In fact, forgettaboutit. I'm gonna go have a Guinness Stout.Peace.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 02-02-2004]

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A,As I read this post, I kept thinking, "I bet it'd be fun talking with this guy. I could probably get a whole glass of beer drunk while he's going through all this!"The devil? I don't think so! Chuckle. But to your post, while you enjoy your Guinness, Really? I meet so very, very few! Could you arrange an introduction? Especially to any single, middle-aged women! That's about it. Suppose you question the bible's claim to be a message from a spiritual being, some sort of "Contact" to use whatshisname's (the cosmos guy) term. You have the bible, your own reason, the history of the bible, history as influenced by the bible. But the bible warns that you are going to get static on this question from some supernatural being that's going to mess up your reason. But if you pray, they'll leave you alone. Whatever epistemological strategy you're going to use to reach a operating "conclusion" to this inquiry, it will likely work best for you if this hypothetical demon is excluded.Now, raising the question is a good idea. Sounds like loving the truth, which the bible commends. Yes, you are the final judge, for your life and that of anyone, like your children, who are tagging along with you. Unless your epistemological strategy is to trust the decision to someone else, which in this case is dangerous if they tell you the Bible is not a "contact." Then you will keep on trusting your authority. But, if they tell you that the bible is contact, then of course, you will quit trusting that or any authority in that way, since the bible demands that you "search out a matter." Not on your own (we have Percy's consensus), but getting from authorities leads, hints, counsel, stuff that helps you judge yourself.Regarding the Dickcissel event, you ask, No, not really. Engineering. The real science studied the plausibility and ways of prayer for 8 years, until the hypothesis was so plausible that I decided to put it into practice, to solve a problem that concerned me. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. Of course, I had solved many other problems in my experiments before then, but at modest or low cost to myself. This one was expensive, as were several other applications that I had engaged in. Research differs from engineering primarily in the cost or risk of the outcome coming out differently than hoped. Nicely put. Yeshua once said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan!" But, mostly, I think Satan talks to us in our own thoughts and opinions. So, when we pray, "deliver us from the evil one." we get a different set of thoughts in our minds. No prohibition, but in the truth table, it may never be proven true to you even when it is true, because, by assuming it's false, demonic truth in it blocks your discovery of that truth. But, you are free to take that risk. The precautions block a confusing or obscuring factor that would otherwise hide the fact from discovery. I was just trying to stay on thread. The question is, "why do Christians make God out to be dumb?" The answer is, "That's their job!" I'm trying to warn you to be very careful about what you hear from Christians. When they pray, "deliver us from the evil one." the prayer is not applied to themselves, since it begins "Our Father (Jehovah)..." and their father is Satan. Of course, we are all born that way, and have to be born again to be otherwise. But Christians choose a life of blatant hypocrisy. You want to know God, don't listen to their version of Him. Ask Him tough questions yourself. Well, this method worked and is working for me. Applied epistemology is my interest, and so I'm interested in everyone's answer the question, "Why or how have you arrived at what you believe?" These are two good examples of thoughts that, if haunting is where they are coming from, will respond to prayers. I've asked God if He would honor agnostic prayers from you for clarity, and a keen interest, and He said He would do both. So, go for it, and see what happens.Stephen

I mean both. A God that could create time itself is obviously not like us. Scriptural references give things like we were made in Gods image, etc, but it never states we are like God in his abilities. So a entity that has those abilities would be beyond comprehension. I think that a distinction between the two is logical.

Ok, the stupid Christian needs someone to tell him how to make the message boxes from my resonder appear in my response
Crashfrog,
I am not debating our abilities to determine right from wrong from God's. I agree with you on that point. I am sayin there are differnces as well. Again, the God that can create mattter is different tham me in many ways.I am not saying God is too complicated, Dont even try. The point I am making is not everything can, or has to be explained. I also disagree that an intelligent God has to have his actions understood by everyone. Why? You state "intelligent plans make sense. Always? What if the plan includes thigs we do not know. Just because we do not know does that make a plan bad? Just becasue everyone does not nderstand does that make a plan bad?Why is it so bad to live in a irrational universe, as you put it? The fact is everything can not be explained by science. I think my point is that a being that created EVERYTHING may have a plan which we cant always understand. And as sidelined or rrhain or somebody said in a previous thread, i can live without having all the answers.

Why, the one that our society chose to adopt. That includes a number of things, such as "the lawgivers are not above the law" and "people have responsibilities to those in their care." Heh, God's going to strike me down for blasphemy? I guess I'm not really afraid of folks that don't exist. You don't believe that it's God's world, or that he's able to watch us all at once, and has the ability to intervene whenever he chooses? Funny, most Christians seem to. How could I have intimate knowledge of a figure that doesn't exist? I'm just saying that there's obvious inconsistencies when you try to reconcile an all-powerful, benevolent deity with the real world that we observed. Again, I don't claim to have any better knowledge of god than anybody else. I'm just saying that if you're going to propose that this world is watched over by an all-powerful, benevolent deity, you have some questions to answer. He's not my god. Why don't you tell me?

Well, the guy that can wear the Beard of Bees is different from me in many ways as well. But neither God nor the Beard of Bees guy is different from me in a way that changes their moral responsibilities. But I think we agree on that. Then it's the moral responsibility of the planner (whose plans affect us all) to at least hint at that reasoning, so as to avoid the apperance of arbitrary judgement.If you're so willing to grant these unknown, mitigating factors, how do you tell the difference between a God who is doing what is best for us and a God who'sjust screwing with us? No. But it does mean there's a moral imperative to explain why it's a good plan. Because things would be unpredictable. Science would be useless. Technology would be impossible. Clearly, though, we live in a rational universe. Yeah, and I know that we'll have to. But the answers are there to be found, which I think is demonstrated by the fact that we keep finding answers.

I do not think God has any "moral responsibility" or that there is a "Moral Imperative" to explain any plan. nor Do I think that this makes the universe irrational, or science useless. It is unlikely we will agree because I believe in a creator and you do not.(Or it seems you do not) Through faith I believe that God desires us to desire him. To me it is that simple. I dont really care if there was an ark, or an adam and eve, or if those are stories or half truths. Faith is strange, and not scientific, and the answers you say we are finding will ALWAYS lead to more questions. Anyway, this is a great site, and I hope my talk of faith, and my point of view are welcome.

Then you don't believe in a moral God? Or it doesn't bother you then that you have no way to tell the difference between a moral or immoral God besides faith? Well,we agree on that, at least. Our search for truth gets closer but will probably never arrive. Is God at that truth? Maybe, but I doubt it. I doubt that anything we yet have a word for is at that truth. Sure. I hope my arrogant young atheism is welcome too.

To answer most of your questions...No it does not bother me that I have no way to tell the difference. I do believe in a moral God but I have no videotape to prove Him. It is very hard for me to believe that there is not a creator. I know that begets more questions like who created the creator and so on...But either "stuff" was out there...and it was just there...or something created it. Is that not the central question? Faith leads me to a creator. I can understand skeptics to Chrisitanity. You think I dont turn on the TV, see a blue haired lady asking for money in the name of God, and woder how we can possibly believe the same things? Human nature is weird, and people will do anything for money. INcluding using religion. Faith and religion , however are mutually exclusive.

Yeah, my church said the same thing, but:1) They said it was important to go to church, worship, and take part in other rituals
2) They said it was important for Christians to behave differently
3) They asked for money.Do you go to church? Do you worship? Do you take part in ritual activites to glorify God? Do you tithe? Do you feel that God favors certain behaviors over others?If so, I don't know how to tell you this, but you're part of a religion. It's just that simple. Faith and religion are different, sure, but religion is just the things you do because you feel that they're the logical consequences of your faith.