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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Iraq needed Saddam? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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I hope the US has learned, although there were certainly messes as recent as the 1980s Iran-Contra Affair where the US sold weapons to Iran and some of the funds were diverted to support groups which could reasonably labelled as terrorists.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat, we created Saddam and he was our ally. It was OUR ambassador that gave Saddam the go ahead to invade Kuwait. Are you are familiar with the meeting between Saddam and Ambassador Glaspie?
The US has long supported dictators as long as it was in the interest of US businesses. Consider the part United Fruit and our support of the company played in all the unrest in South America. Consider your assertion up thread that the US had so right to the oil in Iran and Iraq. While we may pay lip service to words like "Democracy" and "Self Governance" is is only as long as those silly things do not interfere with making a profit. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My subtitle says it all. So we "created" Saddam, correct? Why did we later dispose of him? Did we not foresee a trillion-dollar boondoggle? Did Britain and Margaret Thatcher change our mind on Kuwait?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Probably not related at all.
The issue was most likely the result of our simply not giving clear guidance to the Ambassador, or at least that would be my charitable position. BUT remember that George HW Bush also served as the head of the CIA for a year under Gerald Ford and as Vice President under Ronald Reagan. He was not a naive non-political person unfamiliar with either the history of the region or intrigue. Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat? But again, return to the examples of Yugoslavia, Czeckoslovakia, the US and Iraq. What should we learn from the former that might be relevant today related to Iraq and equally important Turkey? Edited by jar, : hit wrong key
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In terms of international relations and trade, stability is more important than democracy. Democracies tend to be unstable. The US and Canada, for example, tend to swing back and forth between left and right every decade or so. Sometimes, some clod like Trump decides to undo all the deals done by the previous administration. On a simple level, I think that the US wants Iraq to become democratic(as in friendly trading partner)...."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
Let's start with Saddam. This is where I get a bit confused since you said that *we* created Saddam. So I did a quickie self-studied History Lesson. Let's see if I can identify any of the main points or issues:
Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat? Elsevier Ltd writes: So my first question is why did it take so long for the US to brand Saddam as a terrorist? It seems to me that these issues are more complex than a surface assessment will indicate. So I need to ask myself another question. The American invasion of Iraq in 2003 had begun, according to the view of the American government and their allies, as a legitimate, defensive response to the threat of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which the Saddam Hussein government allegedly had in its arsenal. Saddam Hussein's government was immediately perceived as a threat and an affront to the international community in the wake the September 11, 2001 bombing of the world trade center. America has found a casus belli to go to war under the so-called war on terrorism slogan. Elsevier Ltd. writes:
History shows us that we used our excessive force and won the wars decisively. A question that pops up in my mind is also this: According to the United States of America, there was a strong linkage between Saddam Hussein and international terrorism and the first priority of the United States government is to protect its citizens and its political and economic interests; its national security is always paramount Also, the United States significantly supports democratic governments around the world and the Baathist regime was seen as totalitarian and undemocratic. Consequently, regime change in Iraq became the U.S. priority and the only way to achieve that was through the use of force.The research paper focuses on the U.S. decision to invade Iraq from three different analytical perspectives: OK, this is quickly getting complicated. Perhaps I can break it down to its essence.
realism, liberalism, and Marxist perspective in order to figure out the causes of the invasion decision. These three international theories are integrated with four different levels of analysis such as individual level, state level, systematic level, and socio-economic level. These chickens are coming home to roost. No longer do we have a world of weak countries and docile populations. We are now competing with these people and these countries. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Perhaps Moscow Mitch and the Senate Republicans see Trump as stable enough for their interests which are not so much democratic as they are republican nationalist.
Democracies tend to be unstable.quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: These chickens are coming home to roost. No longer do we have a world of weak countries and docile populations. We are now competing with these people and these countries. Back to competition yet again. Sheesh. We are not competing with the people of other nations!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Competition is at the core of these issues.
Back to competition yet again. Sheesh. Edited by Thugpreacha, : spellcheckThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Competition is at the core of these issues. Sheesh!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps you can offer your assessment as to what the core issues are then. Note that the conservatives supported Trump's assassination of that general.
Perhaps it helped the competition? Or am I missing something... The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: if we had open borders and my $18.00 an hour job got downsized to a 12.00 an hour job, and the immigration labor was willing to do it for less, I most certainly would be competing against other nations. Why do you think we fight so hard for seniority? We are not competing with the people of other nations! Off Topic, I know. Perhaps you can help us refocus.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Trump's stability isn't really the issue. True, he'd probably be as incompetent a dictator as he is at everything else - but the point is that Americans, and to be fair most nations, don't mind dealing with a dictator as long as they know what to expect. Perhaps Moscow Mitch and the Senate Republicans see Trump as stable enough for their interests which are not so much democratic as they are republican nationalist."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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