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Author | Topic: Parables 101 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: If you believe that Somebody is going to judge you some day, then YOU are the one who has to defend YOURSELF in front of that judge. So lets talk about the Widow with two mites.
Luke 21:1-4 writes: And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had."NKJV Are we in fact *all* commanded to do likewise? What does the parable imply?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I appreciate you charging me to think more deeply about what I write. It is a good exercise.
jar writes: Good point.
Remember, divisions such as chapters are a new invention, at the time these things were written this was not broken down into chapters, it was just one long manuscript. This lesson actually starts at the end of what is now Chapter 24. There it points out that none of us know when the end may come, either our personal end or the Second Coming. We are told that we must live our charge as though each day was our last opportunity. When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it.jar writes: Yes. And the house that was hopefully given to me (unless we have to sell it to take care of Mom) is a sancuary where my 60 year old diabetic body can rest and recuperate so that I may be of value to myself and others.
We are expected to use the talents given us.jar writes: I cant argue with that.
But the message is not that you should just do what is needed for YOU to survive. The message is that we are but stewards. As is said at the offering "Of thine own have we given thee". We are expected to use the gifts we have been given, whether ten talents, five talents or just one talent to increase, to help, to do for the least of these.jar writes: I seek to expand my talent through prayer, fasting, introspection and ultimately action.
When you don't use the talent that you were given you might as well bury it in the ground.jar writes: My behavior does include prayer. Go back and look again at this section, beginning at Matthew 24:45. This is a whole series of parables centered on the idea that we each much do our duty. There is the contrast between the servant left in charge in the masters absence, then the Ten Virgins, this one (the Talents) and it ends with the Sheep and the Goats. The one common thread throughout all of them is that you will be judged based on your behavior. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's not a parable. It's an actual event in the life of Jesus.
What does the parable imply? Phat writes:
What kind of pick-and-choose God do you believe in? Don't you think He would judge everybody on the same scale? Are we in fact *all* commanded to do likewise? Notice that the rich men put in "offerings" for God. ("I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.") Doesn't that sound like trying to buy your way into heaven? Also notice that the poor widow put in "more than all." She put in all of her worldly goods AND she put in her trust."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Also notice that the poor widow put in "more than all." She put in all of her worldly goods AND she put in her trust. And she was commended for it. But He did not then say "go and do likewise". Notice his exchange with Zacchaeus.
Luke 19:1-10 writes:
Then Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. 2 Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Him, for He was going to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, He looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." 6 So he made haste and came down, and received Him joyfully. 7 But when they saw it, they all complained, saying,"He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." 8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."NKJV Clearly what was said to One rich young ruler did not apply to all rich people. And note Zacchaeus confidence that he had never knowingly defrauded anyone."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why would He have to? You wouldn't expect Him to say, "This is good and that is bad. Now take your pick." Isn't it a foregone conclusion that He would automatically expect you to do good?
But He did not then say "go and do likewise". Phat writes:
In that case, Jesus was contradicting Himself. He didn't tell the rich young ruler to sell half of what he had. He didn't commend the widow for giving one mite. He didn't kill Ananias and Sapphira for holding back half.
Zacchaeus negotiated the terms and Jesus approved. Only 1/2 was mentioned. Phat writes:
The early church didn't think that was clear. Clearly what was said to One rich young ruler did not apply to all rich people. Why would Jesus have one standard for one person and a different standard for somebody else? You have Him contradicting Himself all over the place.
Phat writes:
He didn't say that. He said IF he had defrauded anybody he would make restitution fourfold. And note Zacchaeus confidence that he had never knowingly defrauded anyone."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Sounds as if you too are playing apologist and rationalizing what Jesus must have meant. At the very least you are dancing. In that case, Jesus was contradicting Himself. He didn't tell the rich young ruler to sell half of what he had. He didn't commend the widow for giving one mite. He didn't kill Ananias and Sapphira for holding back half. Speaking of apologists, here is what one respectable guy said: Does Jesus Expect His Followers to Give Up All of Their Possessions? quote: The only reason you feel that it does is because it is what you believe anyway...imagining what a great world it could be if everyone did so. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Jesus knew the young man’s heart. He knew that he was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. So Jesus knew something the rest of the audience did not. Kinda like one of those old Perry Mason dramas. If so then why wasn't this explained in the narrative? Instead of punishing the young man for being duplicitous the narrative punishes him for being rich and not giving it all. Wrong message sent. Or wrong interpretation. Factio Republicana delenda est.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not at all. I'm pointing out that if YOUR interpretation of Zacchaeus is valid, then Jesus contradicted Himself. If Jesus DIDN'T contradict Himself, your interpretation of Zacchaeus must be invalid.
Sounds as if you too are playing apologist and rationalizing what Jesus must have meant. At the very least you are dancing. Phat writes:
Your apologist doesn't explain why the early church believed that Jesus meant what He said. Speaking of apologists, here is what one respectable guy said: blah blah blah... Your apologist also lies through his teeth: "Even if the rich young ruler would have given away his riches and followed Christ, he wouldn’t have earned his salvation." That's EXACTLY what Jesus said WOULD happen.
Phat writes:
Stop lying. I have told you many times that I don't believe in any "great world". The only reason you feel that it does is because it is what you believe anyway...imagining what a great world it could be if everyone did so."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Dan,RBC Apologist writes: Jesus knew the young man’s heart. He knew that he was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. AZPaul3 writes: So Jesus knew something the rest of the audience did not. Kinda like one of those old Perry Mason dramas. If so then why wasn't this explained in the narrative? Instead of punishing the young man for being duplicitous the narrative punishes him for being rich and not giving it all. Wrong message sent. Or wrong interpretation. For us wannabe apologists out there, it is kinda assumed that Jesus knows things that the rest of the audience is basically unenlightened about. And for the record, we don't believe that the Bible has many "god characters" in it. The vast majority of us are not liars, though we tend to protect our "liars" and forgive them much quicker than the political Left does when a liar is exposed. Human nature is what it is. Jesus was not just God incarnate--He was human. And another error that ringo makes is when he assumes that Jesus has the same command for everybody. That can clearly be proven false through scripture. And why not? Do you expect everyone you talk to to need the same counsel?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I have told you many times that I don't believe in any "great world". Nor do I. But I DO believe in a Great God."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: For us wannabe apologists out there, it is kinda assumed that Jesus knows things that the rest of the audience is basically unenlightened about. You do realise that this apologist has just made all this up don't you?
quote: He's pretending to know the mind of god and spooling out a pile of hokum that he wants to feel right about. He knows no more than you, Ringo, me and the gatepost. All we have is what's written, take it at face value or not at all, stop spinning.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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I fail to see where this response has anything to do with the issue presented.
For us wannabe apologists out there, it is kinda assumed that Jesus knows things that the rest of the audience is basically unenlightened about. The issue, Phat, is the criteria used to judge the victim. The text written in the parable condemns the kid for being rich and not giving it ALL away. Your apologist says, no, that's not the reason (which is killer harsh on ALL rich people trying to be christian). It was because the kid was being duplicitous, dishonest in his inquiry about what it takes to be saved. Nowhere in the narrative is this theme expressed. It’s bogus. Your apologist was trying to finesse away the harsh criticism of the parable showing that to be saved, one (and by one it is implied everyone) has to give up everything to preach and perform good works to be saved. That is harsh. So to soften it a bit your apologist adds elements not in the original. The kid is condemned for his unstated, un-evidenced, duplicity of mind and not for being miserly. Rich folks get another break from the requirements of the creed. What I’m doing, Phat, is calling your apologist out for being duplicitous himself. What the parable says on its face is too harsh a judgement, say some, for just being a rich person so change the story to make the punishment for something else. Make the punishment for ANYTHING other than just being rich. Condemned as "rich" sends a bad vibe through the mega-churches and their pastors. With your apologist's interpretation the rich can keep their wealth and can now throw a few coins at the poor feeling truly delighted and religiously fulfilled knowing they are doing good works.
And why not? Do you expect everyone you talk to to need the same counsel? I should think god, holding the keys to the kingdom, would be very consistent in his messages and the requirements for entry. Specifics may very by individual story but a consistent theme across the canvass should be expected. Rich man who refuses to give it all - condemned.Rich man willingly gives half and corrects his errors - salvation granted. Poor old widow donates 2 coins which represent her entire worth - salvation granted. (would the judgement be the same if she had donated only one?) A couple sell their property and donate all but a portion - condemned. [aside] WTF!? I sell my house for $100 and donate $90 to the church. Who is this jew to tell me I'm condemned to hell? Just kill me right in my tracks, fall down dead because I gave generously but not all?! More than the guy who gave only half and was saved? And you kill my wife, too! Consistent much, christianity? No wonder you're lost to this world. [/aside] Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Factio Republicana delenda est.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I've always argued that Ananias and Saphira essentially killed themselves through being in a group of strong and truthful believers where lying was a grievous sin against the Holy Spirit. It was not the money they kept back that was the issue. It was lying about it.
It would be as if I told everyone at EvC that I had given everything up to the Lord and yet still kept my house. I believe that God wouldn't be mad that I had kept my house. He would be mad that I misrepresented my obedience and sacrifice by telling everyone I gave up everything and lying about it. And my wife, if I had one, would be guilty for defending my lie. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why do you always do that Gish Gallop? That has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. Go back and answer the post you quoted. Respond to the bold-faced lie that your apologist told. ringo writes:
Nor do I. But I DO believe in a Great God. I have told you many times that I don't believe in any "great world"."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
That's not the way the writer of Acts told it. He said they were punished for "A AND B". He did not say "A but not B".
Your argument is like saying murder is okay but don't you dare LIE about it. That would be REALLY bad."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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