Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

Moduluous..... great post... but you are forgetting their most important argument/point.Christianity is the true religion and Islam is fake.

It's bogus, Mod. "No true" this or that is just an empty formula in this context. You are just stating the same old false moral equivalence from the pink cloud that fuzzes over the differences. If their scriptures say that it pleases Allah to kill the infidel then a true Muslim does commit atrocities. The fundamentalists are perfectly right to commit terrorism according to their Koran.Yes there are Muslim groups who deny this. Nothing new there. And they may sincerely believe this because they practice a peaceful form of Islam themselves. But to do so involves whitewash and denial of what is there in black and white in their scriptures, that the literalist Muslim leaders have every {logical and historical} right to take as directives to murder the infidel.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Still waiting for a response to Message 55.In addition, you have not provided any evidence that there is not a moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity. Do you have such evidence?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The evidence is in the texts themselves as I said. Read them. There's your evidence. The Bible does not exhort the reader to kill anybody, quite the reverse. The Koran does in places exhort its readers to kill people. Open and shut for anybody with eyes to see and ears to hear.

So you have asserted, but we still waiting for a response to Message 55.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I am making no moral equivalence arguments. I am not saying what is right or wrong, or that there is no right and wrong. For the purposes of my argument it doesn't even matter if the Qu'ran does justify murder. What matters is your qualifications in regard to judging the matter. If you aren't qualified you have to cease the debate, if you are qualified what makes you qualified to make this decision where others are not qualified to make the decision about Christianity?What makes you so special? You seem to be ignoring me.According to some people's interpretation the Qu'ran justifies terrorism. According to others it does not. According to you, only Christians who have come to Jesus etc can understand the Bible. I put it to you that you cannot judge what the Qu'ran justifies or not. If you think you can, then the same applies for non-Christians and the Bible. Or you are special pleading. Your choices:1. The Qu'ran can only interpreted by the true believers. The same applies for the Bible. If you disagree that the same applies to Qu'ran and the Bible go to number 3.2. The Qu'ran can be interpreted by anybody. The same applies for the Bible. If not option 1 or 2, go to number 3.3. Special plead that either Islam or Christianity is an exception.If you can name another option, go for it, but I'm sure that's exhaustive. I'm lumping hypocrisy and special pleading in the same bucket by the way...for ease. Very good. So am I to believe that a non-Muslim has authority to decide who is a true Muslim and who isn't? Does this also apply to Christianity? If it doesn't apply to both then you are special pleading/hypocritical.Of course you could be saying that they are both true Muslims, in which case you have yet another can of worms to deal with.Its not a nice choice to make, I know Faith, but I see nothing else for it...you can't have it both ways without special pleading. And the special pleading defense works for both parties so it doesn't get us anywhere.

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In the end, I don't expect you to actually address the issues, because to do so would undermine at least one of your main arguments in a critical manner. If you want to respond by simply asserting that my argument is bogus and then misrepresenting it as some kind of 'moral equivalence' argument...without any supporting argumentation, then there is no debate. You are simply avoiding my points and technically breaking forum rules. At this point you must either1. Continue stating I am wrong with no rational argumentation behind it.2. Stop responding to my points and let others decide who's point is stronger.3. Concede that you are not qualified to make a judgement on what the Qu'ran says and who is a true Muslim.4. Concede that non-Christians are qualified to make a judgement on what the Bible says and who is a true Christian.5. Demonstrate, using rational argumentation, an alternative option to choose. Rebutting my point and putting the ball in my court.Since I don't want to go around in circles. Can you choose one now, and if you choose option 1, I can just refer you to my previous posts until you choose something else.

Would you, if you easily can, link me to the war verses or the thread discussing them?I don't think I've read them before and am interested.I'll let you know what they really mean after I read them Thanks.

I guess I'll do your homework for you. Are you talking about this?Sura 9: This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement. So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers. And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving
Merciful. And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Exactly! The Bible has just as much ability to inspire violence as the Koran. Nonsense. Many HAVE interpreted the Bible to support violent action. History stands squarely against you on this. One is free to interpret scripture as one chooses. If God uses punishment of a certain type, might not some of his followers be lead by His example?Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

Whitewashing the genocide perpetuated by jihadis, and the crimes of radical Islam all over the Muslim world towards non-Muslims by attacking Christianity is kind of stupid.No one here has addressed the fundamental difference between Jesus and His teachings, which were physically non-violent and men such as Ghandi and MLK have at times learned from and applied the "love your enemy" approach, with Mohammed who was a conquering general.

I agree randman that attacking Christianity is not the way to approach this debate. I also think that no one here is trying to whitewash what is going on in Sudan. We are just trying to make sure you are not trying to play the villify all of Islam game. That is false. I have done just that in this very thread with my initial replies and subsequent replies to Mod and Rick.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Couldn't prove it by your examples. The FACT is, if you care about facts over your preference for this moral equivalence fantasy, that Jews and Christians don't go around killing nonJews and nonChristians because they think the Bible tells them to. Only a bunch of Muslims have been hijacking planes and killing people all over the world for many years now.Those who have done violence in the name of Christ have not done it by the BIBLE but by human traditions that ignore the Bible, except for a very very few people who think they are supposed to live like the Israelites although not a single command to Bible readers to violence can be found in the OT either.

I agree that that sounds like violence only within the historical context. I will have to study the situation further.It certainly does NOT sound like defensive action by any stretch of the imagination. It sounds like forced conversions.

i'll make you a deal. go live in israel or palestine for a year, and then come back and tell me that. and maybe i'll believe you.but the religious tension is far, far more complicated than you are probably aware of, and much more so than you make out. did you know, for instance, that there are groups of orthodox jews who support hamas? here is one such organization's congratulations letter to hamas. i specifically like their use of "torah jews" which i guess are kind of like "bible christians." uh, even the direct commandment to commit genocide against six nations, found in deuteronomy 20? tell me, if you take the bible as literal history -- have you read the book of joshua? there's a group of jews killing nonjews because they think god himself tells them to do so. that's about as biblical as you can get.

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They were currently at war with those that they all grouped as "idolators". Those are instructions for how to deal with them. It specifically says that they can continue to be idolators if they don't cause harm.You said that somewhere there was a declaration to kill or convert all the Jews. That is the oft trotted out war verse that I thought you were talking about. It obviously does not say what you claimed. Were you thinking of another verse? If so then you may have to continue to enlighten us "decieved" folk about what Sura it is in because I certainly don't feel like reading the whole Koran again looking for a verse that I don't remember existing the first time I read it.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)