Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

I'm familiar enough with the situation there from people who do live in Israel and I'd bet anything you are buying leftist anti-Jewish propaganda. YES! What is your point? Well, how very interesting that if they are "like Bible Christians" they are OPPOSING the kind of violence that everybody here likes to attribute to Bible believers. Did you bother to think about that? It makes MY case, not yours.So there are orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism and there are leftist Jews who oppose anything the Israeli government does. What else is new? How does that prove anything about THE BIBLE'S BEING THE SOURCE OF VIOLENCE BY JEWS AGAINST NONJEWS? It proves the exact opposite.Beyond that we could argue the Orthodox and leftist accusations concerning the political situation, but that would be off topic. AS I SAID, the Bible does not command ITS READERS to do such things!! Why can't anybody read???? "TO BIBLE READERS" GOT IT? The Bible has many SPECIFIC HISTORICAL incidents in which the Israelites were commanded to kill particular other tribes. There is NOTHING that suggests anything other than an action for a PARTICULAR TIME AND PLACE AND PURPOSE.Edited by Faith, : adding bolds in order to shout loud enough to get heard

yes, the leftist anti-jewish propaganda that i hear from my teacher, who was born and raised in israel, served her term in the israeli air force, teaches at a local hebrew school, and is quite jewish.seriously. do you hear yourself? i'm probably the most hebrew-friendly non-jew on this board. heck, my signature is in hebrew. i consistently take a VERY jewish point of view in religious debates. and you're accusing me of being antisemitic, for pointing out that some people in the jewish community are also crazy, and anti-israel themselves? yes, they are opposing violence by supporting hamas. wonderful logic, there. just for clarification, hamas is the group that supports violent overthrow of the state of israel, by means of terrorism. i'm sure you know this. are you playing stupid?they support this because, as they interpret the bible, they are supposed to currently be in exile, as the messiah has not yet come. they think that the state of israel does not have god's blessing, as evidenced by the lack of a messiah on the throne. and they are supporting a group that seeks to violently overthrow israel.that's a little different than opposing some politics -- though ironically people over here often seem to mistake questioning politicians and actively supporting terrorists. because nobody EVER reads the bible out of context, or misinterprets what it says.but lemme ask you: killing the infidels was ok in joshua's time, and not an example of jewish people religiously motivated to violence? classy.Edited by arachnophilia, : content, typoes

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I went looking. I thought it might be from Surah 2: or perhaps Edited by Modulous, : needed a decent subtitle

Yep. No "go kill all the Jews" in any of that. Faith, are there others? Help us decieved out here.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Islam will never change. Why? Because their holy books, the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnah's all advocate violent expansion of Islam and ultimate world conquest. According to the OT prophets, they will nearly succeed, stopped only by the 2nd advent of the the Judeo-Christian Messiah. The reason the leaders are violent is because they are the ones who are the closest to the books and the most devout.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Ignoring for a moment that this is under debate, why does it mean the character of Islam won't change? Christianity changed from Christ's time to the Dark Ages through the Crusades and the Inquisition and then into the Rennaisance and Age of Reason. Why can Islam not do likewise? I'm sure some Muslims will hang about moaning that the scripture is being translated for convenience (much like literalist/fundamentalists in the Christian community do now), but it doesn't mean that Islamic culture won't change.Of course, the ignoring the bit about what the Qu'ran says is a pretty important thing to ignore. I can see why people think that it is violent - but only in the same way Christianity is (well a little different which I'll come to). We don't stone women to death because that instruction does not apply anymore...the same goes for the Qu'ran. Everytime I look at the Qu'ran I keep seeing references to leaving people alone unless they bother you, and retaliating in kind. I see tolerance for other religions as long as those religions are peaceful to Muslims.The big difference is that Christianity explicitly forbids retaliation. Indeed, it espouses a combat style which would allow your enemy a free shot whenever he hits you. That is where the difference lies. Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity - eye for an eye and all that...but with a higher dose of Mercy and Forgiveness.Of course, many Muslims ignore the spirit and content of the Qu'ran and attempt to use it to justify the acts you speak of. Oddly, Christians go to war in the name of their neo-pacifist God (he used to be all vengeful but now the rules change). But hey, followers of religions aren't perfect. I don't intend to special plea for Christianity because I happened to be one for a long time, or that I happen to like Christianity more than Islam. I am not going to special plea for Islam because it is somehow 'politically correct' either, or because I dislike my former religion. I just look to basic selfish human behaviour for the answers...religion is just a good excuse as far as I'm concerned, to twist and manipulate those that are gullible or who are crazy enough to enjoy being given any old justification for murdering people that they perceive have ruined their lives.I'm glad we can all agree on one thing though - it's a sorry state of affairs and if there is a God, I hope he has mercy on the souls of the victims of this madness.

Because the change Christianity underwent was a change back to adherence to the Bible as the basis of the faith, from centuries of corruption by manmade tradition; whereas the change Islam would have to undergo would be a change AWAY from their Koran and all their sacred writings, as Buz said, even a rewriting of portions of it. Isn't going to happen. They believe it was given by God.I'm sure there are many "liberals" among them who wouldn't have a problem with it, but as long as there are fundamentalists, the Koran is going to influence many to wreak its violence, and it will be wreaked against the liberals and moderates to shut them up by force if necessary.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The Koran says BOTH, Mod. It advocates BOTH that sort of tolerance AND the most vicious kind of wanton murder of unbelievers. It's actually rather schizophrenic, but anyone who takes the whole thing as given by God can't just ignore one part of it and accept the other part. People like Khomeini and Bin Laden didn't wrongly interpret the Koran. They know what it says and they take it literally. You can ask them how they reconcile the basic contradiction, this I don't know, but their holy books DO give the green light to doing great harm to mere unbelievers in Allah without the slightest call to doing it in a civilized way -- such as by formally declaring war, or giving the enemy a sporting chance, or avoiding doing harm to civilians -- on the contrary they TARGET civilians. And historically Islam has persecuted the other religions in its neighborhood, and is still doing so all around the world. Just keep reading past the tolerant parts for how they rationalize this. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, then how did it happen with Christianity? Do you really think that the early Christians were any less enthusiastic about their faith, and the divine origin of their scriptures?When I look at Islam, I see a religion that's basically about a thousand years behind Christianity but largely on the same path of development. Which would make sense; Islam's origin being around 1000 AD, as I understand it.

You aren't looking at the TEXTS of Islam. You are making up stuff.AS I SAID, the Reformation was a RETURN TO the texts of Christianity.Would you please read what I wrote CAREFULLY?

And we still are waiting for a response to Message 55.Which texts are you using? Which Sura and Verses? Where in the Qur'an did you find the verse you quoted when you wrote

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I did. Will you do me the same favor? No, I get that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was pretty simple - for Christianity to have returned to the text - granting, for a moment, your conception of Christianity's history - it had to have departed in the first place.You referred to a time when Christianity had departed from the texts. I get that. So there was a period when Christianity moved away from the texts (so that, later, it could move back to the texts). It happened. Why couldn't it happen to Islam?

I brought up Sura 9 and Mod showed us some from Sura 2. Doing a google search for "Koran war verse" will get you lots of anti-Islam hate sites talking about the war verses. Get what verses they say and then go look them up on an online Koran to read the surrounding passages.{edit: I went ahead and found some for ya}Top notch fundie blather right here. Almost letter for letter exactly what you have been reading from the anti-Islam side here. The difference I guess is that these sites list the verses while repeated attempts to get Faith to dig up here "kill all the jews" verse have been met with a defening silence.http://www.levitt.com/...006/01/16/korans-war-verses-at-work
QuranThis one is a comprehensive list of verses dealing with Jihad. Although many of those are not war verses (most people very ignorantly don't realize that Jihad does not just mean "holy war") some of them are.http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Yes, and that was the Middle Ages when the Bible was hardly taught and superstitions of all kinds were preached instead, and the Inquisition was created and the like.The Reformation was started by some priests who actually studied and taught the Bible to their congregations and in so doing realized the Church was way off course. Who says Islam ever moved away from its texts? Nobody has claimed that. It's not the case. But if they have it is in a liberalizing direction and if they were to move back to them they would become more violent, because that is the nature of their texts. It is NOT the nature of the Bible texts.Let's take it very slowly.You are saying that Christianity stopped being violent so why can't Islam, right?You are saying that if Christianity could stop being violent by reforming and getting back to its texts, why can't Islam, right?The answer is that Chrsitianity was violent because it had departed from its texts into manmade tradition and just plain fallen human nature.That is not why Islam is violent. Islam is violent because of what is IN its texts, because of FOLLOWING them, not departing from them.When they depart from them they become like the majority of Muslims who are just minding their own business and following the tolerant peaceful parts of Islam and ignoring the violence that is prescribed in it.If they were to get back to their texts in the total way the Protestants did, they would become universally violent, not the opposite. Read Message 12 where I quote Khomeini. THAT is what reformation in the sense of getting back to the literal meaning of the texts would look like in Islam.Reformation in Christianity was a recovery of the Bible and the true message of Jesus which is at odds with all kinds of violence -- not that it happened overnight but surely it is obvious that was the overall direction and result.Reformation in Islam would have to be in the opposite direction -- an abandonment or correction of their sacred texts -- if the outcome is to be the end of terrorism.I hope this is clear now.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I will do more studying Jazz, but you are making the mistake of flatly claiming that your way of reading the texts, or your family's way, or a particular sect's way of reading them is the right way. As long as there are Muslim leaders who read jihad literally as Khomeini did and Bin Laden and all their serious followers do, and groups like Hamas, their reading is just as valid as yours, and it is obviously the reading that matters, because it is the reading that leads to terrorism.What good would it do for your reading to be the "correct" one anyway? As long as there is good reason for it to be read as the jihadis read it, terrorism will not stop.What is scary is that political correctness DEMANDS that we ignore this obvious fact, and PC influences the media who will not reveal that a particular act of terrorism came out of Muslim jihad, but bend over backwards obscuring that fact.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.