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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 391 of 479 (734592)
07-31-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Straggler
07-31-2014 7:24 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Not really.

No, really. That's pretty much exactly what my position was throughout this whole thread.

You argued that a giant crucifix had "secular purpose" but were patently unable to express what that "secular purpose" was.

Message 127

quote:
They have a piece of the building that held a significance for the resuers. Its not just any old cross, that it was a part of the actual building is part of the historical significance.

Message 138

quote:
Like with this cross being a piece of the actual building and then also providing help to the rescue workers, the religious nature is secondary to that for being secular and considered worthy of the museum, imho.

Message 139

quote:
And also that it could have raised morale and coordinated the effort. Its not just a religious symbol.

Message 144

quote:
I don't think it should matter how it became secular, but I do not think it happens like you're describing.

Its secular to me because:

  • Its from the actual building, i.e. its an artifact from the site itself

  • It played an important role in the resue operation

That it became important because of its religious significance does not come into play, imho.


Message 151

quote:
Straggler writes:

Why not admit it's religious nature and argue that it should be there anyway?


That has been my position the whole time. I have admitted it is religious, and that that doesn't matter, and I have not denied that it is religious. I've argued that it passes the Lemon Test so it should be allowed.

Message 191

quote:
What secular reason?

Please catch up on what's already been posted:

Message 59:

quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.
"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.

Message 127:

quote:
How exactly did it help them?

Spiritual comfort in a time of high stress. Increase morale. Some sort of effort consilience. I dunno, I wasn't there. I'm just taking their word for it.

Message 144:

quote:
Its secular to me because:

  • Its from the actual building, i.e. its an artifact from the site itself

  • It played an important role in the resue operation

.

If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason?

In a museum that was exhibiting things that have helped DMV workers, showing how Kali did could be done in a secular way, yes.


I think there's even more later but that should suffice and I'm tired of looking up old messages.

I bel ieve it was I who said it was a blatantly religious symbol that held historical significance (AKA secular interest) to the events of 9/11 and that it's inclusion could thus potentially be justified on that basis.

Where did you say that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2014 7:24 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2014 1:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 392 of 479 (734598)
07-31-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by Straggler
07-31-2014 7:24 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Straggler writes:

You argued that a giant crucifix had "secular purpose" but were patently unable to express what that "secular purpose" was.


I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2014 7:24 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM ringo has responded
 Message 406 by ramoss, posted 08-02-2014 1:00 AM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 479 (734603)
07-31-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by ringo
07-31-2014 12:19 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious).

I would suggest actually looking at the history of the Red Cross and other symbols used by the ICRC before spouting off nonsense. The various red symbols were chosen and put on large white backgrounds because they would be recognized as something not to shoot at because of their religious or other connotations. They were not chosen to represent sacrifice. They serve as trademarks and as "don't shoot me, I'm trying to save your brother' truce flags.

Were you aware that the red symbols include a red Shield of David and a Red Lion?

In this particular case, regardless of what crosses can mean in other contexts, the cross in question commemorates a religious expression that occurred during a non secular crisis. It is intended to be a crucifix, not a generic "t" because historically that's what was intended at the time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 395 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2014 2:22 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 394 of 479 (734606)
07-31-2014 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:

The various red symbols were chosen and put on large white backgrounds because they would be recognized as something not to shoot at because of their religious or other connotations.


Why they were chosen is irrelevant to the cultual significance that they actually have today.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 5:24 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 395 of 479 (734607)
07-31-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 2:09 PM


Just a minor quibble:

It is intended to be a crucifix

A crucifix is a cross that has Jesus on it, not just a bare cross.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 396 of 479 (734625)
07-31-2014 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ringo
07-31-2014 2:17 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why they were chosen is irrelevant to the cultual significance that they actually have today.

Correct. That's why I included the current meanings in my post.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 2:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 11:41 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 397 of 479 (734698)
08-01-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 5:24 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:

That's why I included the current meanings in my post.


You included what you interpret the current meanings to be. Others do not necessarily interpret a cross as a religious symbol.

For one thing, it is non-denominational. It is associated with a culture that happens to have a lot of Christian roots. It is not necessarily associated with particular religious beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 5:24 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 11:44 AM ringo has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 398 of 479 (734700)
08-01-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by ringo
08-01-2014 11:41 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
That's a pretty bold claim. Do you happen to have anything to support it? I, for one, have never seen any non-christian rocking a cross necklace. I, for one, have never seen a non-christian displaying a cross in their house. But then, argument from ignorance and all that, so please, show me the money! Unless you are using "cultural christians" as your copout. If that is the case, those people are still christians because they more often than not believe in jesus in some fashion.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:05 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 399 of 479 (734705)
08-01-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by hooah212002
08-01-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
hooah writes:

Unless you are using "cultural christians" as your copout.


I was talking specifically about a culture with Christian roots as opposed to religious practices. What part of that did you miss?

hooah writes:

If that is the case, those people are still christians because they more often than not believe in jesus in some fashion.


I beilieve in much of what the fictional character Jesus stood for but I don't consider myself a Christian. I also believe in much of what the fictional character Frodo stood for but I don't call it religious.

hooah writes:

I, for one, have never seen a non-christian displaying a cross in their house.


I have a crucifix that I made myself. My fundy friends and relatives are either puzzled or horrified.

hooah writes:

I, for one, have never seen any non-christian rocking a cross necklace.


Or, you assume that every stranger you see wearing a cross is a Christian.

I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 11:44 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 4:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 400 of 479 (734714)
08-01-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by New Cat's Eye
07-31-2014 10:44 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:

Where did you say that?

quote:
But I guess it is easier to make silly assertions about a giant crucifix having a "secular purpose" than to actually make the argument (that I would have some sympathy for) that it deserves to be in the museum as a religious symbol significant to the events of 9/11

Message 235

quote:
Why not just admit it's entirely non-secular meaning and advocate it's inclusion as a religious symbol that is historically relevant for it's religious symbolism? That is the only honest approach.

Your "secular purpose" argument holds as much water as a leaky bucket.


Message 309

Do you think "significance" and "purpose" mean the same thing?

If you can enlighten me as to the secular purpose (as opposed to historical significance) of this gigantic cross then I would still be happy to hear about that.

And if it's just a historical object, as opposed to a religious symbol that has historical significance, then we are back to including it in the museum but placed on it's side or whatever.

But that would be silly because it would negate the religious purpose that gave it historical significance in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2014 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 401 of 479 (734729)
08-01-2014 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by ringo
08-01-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
For one thing, it is non-denominational. It is associated with a culture that happens to have a lot of Christian roots.

Am I wrong in taking this to mean that you are saying it is pure coincidence that the cross has meaning? "Happens to have Christian roots"? Would Americans or anything region that "happens to have a lot of christian roots" wear crosses if not for the christian roots?

What part of that did you miss?

The part where you admitted it as a christian symbol instead of calling it a cultural one. "Culturally christian" is still christian. Being an atheist that grew up in christian culture doesn't automatically make one a "cultural christian"unless they do christian things and doing christian things would make them ::GASP:: a christian.

I beilieve in much of what the fictional character Jesus stood for but I don't consider myself a Christian.

Do you see the difference in what I wrote and what you wrote? Belief in words written by what you admit to be a fictional character is not anywhere remotely close to believing IN that fictional character. It is the belief IN that fictional character that is important and the main tenant of that religion.

I have a crucifix that I made myself. My fundy friends and relatives are either puzzled or horrified.

Gee, I wonder why they look at you funny.

Or, you assume that every stranger you see wearing a cross is a Christian.

yes, because it is a symbol of christianity.

tell me: would anyone wear a cross had it not been for this jesus character or christianity? Do Muslims wear crosses? Jews? Hindus?

I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?

And I am sure you don't wear them to be ironic whatsoever, right?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 12:02 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 402 of 479 (734732)
08-01-2014 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
07-27-2011 2:06 PM


I feel so sorry for all these atheists I can imagine the ceremony and what the atheists might say to the congregation;

"Dear beloved molecules that existed for a short time for no reason at all, we are gathered here to state that we love you, or did love you, but to be honest,....well, no we didn't actually, because love is a fuzzy feeling that molecules tend to give. And even though there was no point in your lives all that's left of you is pulverized matter, verily I say unto you that Dawkins, our King and commander, offers you his sympathies! We know it was wrong what happened to you....or do we? After all, morality only exists in our heads...and we know there is no reason we exist except to replicate genes...so I guess the conclusion to this ceremony is that we don't actually care that you're dead if we are true to the implications of atheism, because you know, ultimately the perpetrators thought this was the best reason for their lives, to kill you and in some way pass on their genes. So, well, even though we acknowledge you existed, and we acknowledge none of this matters, dear families, find peace in the fact that well, our association of atheists believe that ultimately there is no hope for your dearly departed, and have some cake on the way out, it might increase your gene-flow!"

Well, obviously I don't mean any genuine disrespect, it is actually a sarcastic example of the true implications of atheism and should be seen that way. It's actually the absurdity of the philosophy I am attacking. This atheist philosophy, if atheists were true to those implications would likely have to state these things if they are to be truly honest about what they believe. They do indeed believe that ultimately there isn't any right or wrong, they have to, so in a sense they don't think what happened in 9/11 was, "ultimately wrong", but I doubt they would tell you that. Yet in reality I think they do really believe what happened was ultimately wrong.

I think this is the problem, people can see that in reality, atheists too can be genuinely good people, that don't really believe the implications of their own philosophy otherwise they would be true to it. They want to show they can care despite not being religious and the reason they do is because they're not just molecules, like their philosophy tells them.

All I would suggest is to complete the circle. Love is the real deal, does exist and God is love, not the god of hate the muslim murderers chose. The cross represents the penalty Jesus Christ paid for every human being and the lengths God has gone to to prove love is the real deal. Ultimately this world is sinful, and the motives of the murderers were self-centred sinful motives, which is why they done what they done because they only ever knew the sinful nature and didn't have that love in them. There is hope and the cross represents true hope for eternal life in a sinless state, but if atheism is true, then there is no justice for what happened, but you can rest assured, God is the judge, and He will give the exact penalty according to His omniscient wisdom, your relatives will get justice.

Have rats turned up to the ceremony? Have the plants? Yet even atheists feel a need to portray a contrary action and acknowledge that life does indeed mean more than molecules despite their insane philosophy-of-nothingness because they too have a conscience and are made in the image of God. They deny the cross but would likely want to see justice be done, too, I imagine, according to an all-wise judgement.

The truth is there's a lot we don't understand in this world, but to go so far as to throw a God of love out completely, well - that's just folly if He really is there, and we can tell you He is, and that when you have the love of God it is the greatest feeling in the world, and the greatest meaning available and has no offense in it at all. Those who are genuinely born-again as Christ described can experience this love for themselves, and they will also know that it is the key to everything truly and morally good and right.

(Sure, use the "hell" example to come back at me, I can take it, I know it's coming, but at least we don't believe that ultimately there is no reason we exist or are here, which is still insane even if hell doesn't exist. I think I could accept it if hell only existed for genuinely through-and-through evil folk like the extremists and murderers and so forth, but to believe there is no point at all to existing, is just plain dumb, it just is.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Modulous, posted 07-27-2011 2:06 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 7:05 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 404 by Tangle, posted 08-01-2014 7:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 405 by ProtoTypical, posted 08-02-2014 12:20 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 403 of 479 (734736)
08-01-2014 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by mike the wiz
08-01-2014 5:27 PM


At least you've offered Faith some reprieve, so you can take solace in that I suppose since what you post is complete nonsense.

This atheist philosophy

........is "I do not believe in god". Nothing more. Everything else you've stated is a complete fabrication not founded in reality.

if atheists were true to those implications

You mean "if atheists weren't actually atheists, but the kind of atheists I portray them as"?

Try less preaching and more honesty.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by mike the wiz, posted 08-01-2014 5:27 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6919
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 404 of 479 (734737)
08-01-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by mike the wiz
08-01-2014 5:27 PM


MtW writes:

I feel so sorry for all these atheists

I wonder how often posts from fundies start like this?

Anyway, it's a sign that everything that follows is going to be utter garbage. It's a certainty that the poster doesn't understand the very first thing about the beliefs and values of atheists and a that their own beliefs will be superimposed on them instead.

Have a bit of respect, ask a question and those of us that are atheists will try to aswer you - if, in fact, you'd like to understand our position rather than invent your own views on what we think it is.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by mike the wiz, posted 08-01-2014 5:27 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 405 of 479 (734763)
08-02-2014 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by mike the wiz
08-01-2014 5:27 PM


I can imagine the ceremony and what the atheists might say to the congregation;

I imagine that it would sound more like...

quote:
Once again we are gathered to mourn the lives lost to ignorance and fear. Again we count the harm done by the superstitious beliefs of the pig ignorant and glassy eyed.

We remember those whose lives were stolen by these acts of selfish delusion. We ache with profound sadness for those who remain and our guts churn as we taste their grief. We feel it because even though these were strangers to us they were also our kin. They were our brothers and sisters and they shared our desire for a chance to love a be loved. Not so much to ask really and yet such a heinous crime to deny. Torn from the world and from the lives of those who loved them.

Now I know that your first instinct is to say 'Let's go fuck a terrorist sideways up the goat ass right now' but I urge you to remember that hatred is a burden and that you do not have to hate something to be against it. You just have to understand it.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by mike the wiz, posted 08-01-2014 5:27 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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