Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?

Larson got fascinated with the question of the identity of the Christmas Star. He got involved in studying it. He bought an astronomy computer program for looking around the sky for celestial objects near the birth of Christ that could have been the star. He got involved in studying other attempts to locate the star, how to determine dates and so on. He found some very interesting astronomical / astrological phenomena in his study, maybe or maybe not the star itself, but it looks like a likely candidate to me.It's really not the big complicated deal everybody is making out of it.ABE: Again I will refer anyone interested back to the video posted in Message 438 I've also posted the timing for short segments on different aspects of the subject in Message 440 and one more recent one I'd have to look up, for those who might watch part but not all of it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

that's actually very interesting about an "overthrown" King, since Jesus was crucified. It actually adds to the biblical picture rather than contradicting it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I just went to get myself some breakfast and kept pondering what you wrote here. I had to keep from getting tears in my food. Larson saw the figures of Jupiter moving back and forth past Regulus and saw only that this was a King relating to a king, and the three passes made it seem very important. It also occurred in Leo, the sign of the Lion of Judah, the tribe from which the Messiah was to come, and it was closely followed by Virgo the virgin "clothed with the sun" with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at her feet, and the twelve stars on her head signifying all the tribes of Israel.But what you have posted about its meaning as an overthrown king brings it into focus. This is God the Father designating His Son to be the sacrificial lamb, at the time of His conception (the new moon). Or possibly birth, but Larson found the bright conjunction of Jupiter with Venus (God the Father with the virgin) nine months later.This all makes that sky picture particularly moving. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

If they weren't Jewish the signs they saw must have told them this was far more than the king of a tribe, they would have told them this was God in the flesh. That's what their coming to worship him implies.After the discussion about Jupiter passing Regulus three times I think if they'd seen that sign that could be how they recognized the extraordinary greatness of this king. And they'd have known He was to be a King of the Jews because that sign appeared in the sign of the tribe of Judah (however if so that again makes it possible they were Jewish).If they were Jewish you are right they would have known the prophecies, but it's not clear that they were asking where the child was to be born, but where Bethlehem was, which they wouldn't have known if they'd never been to Judea before. So although I agreed that they should have gone straight to Bethlehem, when I reread the passage it seems they just wanted to know how to get there, not where the child was to be born.But either way they knew this king was a king to be worshiped as God, not on the level of the king of Botswana. What signs revealed this to them aren't all that clear to us, but since they came to worship him we know they knew He was no ordinary king.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

If you haven't figured it out yet, my tears were because of the touching meaning I now see in Jupiter's passing of Regulus three times. Fred Larson read it as "crowning" Regulus, but I think from what you quoted it's more likely a sign of the overthrowing of the king, the passes signifying the forsaking of him by God the Father (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?), a pushing away, a rejection, at the same time an anointing of him as king.So this would have been the Annunciation of the birth of this king to be forsaken by the Father, occurring in the sign of the Lion of Judah just before the rising of the virgin. (The new moon under her feet, which was the beginning of the Jewish New Year, is also a picture of her being pregnant with brand new life, brand new because it's a new moon, at her feet because that is a common way scripture describes the birth of a child, same with men: ABE: When the blood moon rises on the day of the crucifixion also at the feet of the sign of Virgo, it implies the death of her son. (And I think "she" is israel as much as she is Mary.) /ABESo I think Larson was right that this (Rosh Hashana) was the Annunciation or day of conception, and that does make the Jupiter-Venus conjunction nine months later the time of Jesus' birth.The meanings are so obvious there is no way Larson just made them up. Really, anyone thinking biblically about these signs would see Leo as the Lion of Judah, Virgo as the virgin mother, Jupiter and Regulus as a relationship between God the Father and another king and so on. You and others keep saying there are other interpretations, I don't see any for a Bible believer.And of course I know how the constellations follow one another. The fact that Virgo always rises after Leo isn't in itself important, it's the activity of Jupiter and Regulus going on in the sign of the lion of Judah, followed by the rising of Virgo looking exactly identical to the woman in Revelation 12. Virgo is always going to rise "clothed with the sun" at that time of year, but always with the crescent moon at her feet on Rosh Hashana? Probably not. When you put ALL the clues together you get a unique event.I'm wondering now just how frequent all these phenomena are. Jupiter passing Regulus THREE TIMES? How is that even possible? But there it is in the Astronomy program.Same with the crucifixion. Blood moons are fairly frequent events, though probably not so frequent rising at the feet of Virgo, and even less frequent also occurring at three in the afternoon (which is when Jesus died on the cross). And the day itself had to fit a collection of clues, such as Nisan 14, the Day of Preparation, falling on a Friday. No matter how common each clue is in isolation, together they amount to something rare. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : Bunch of little corrections for clarity. Sorry

Of course not. This is a prophecy of the life that is just now being created, a portrait of what the man will be. The Magi knew he was to be a king, and he was mocked as a king, His followers knew him to be a king. His life on earth isn't finished, he's coming back to reign. Not that I see. If you can why not suggest them? I wasn't talking about the Magi, they had their own sources of knowledge. But again there seems to be good reason to think they were Jewish anyway, who would have known the prophecies of the OT.The crescent moon occurs always on Rosh Hashana, which I believe I said myself, but it doesn't occur in the same position. But you are leaving out the other events that make this New Year unusual: the Jupiter-Regulus event.It would have been quite dramatic enough that the blood moon rose that night after all the other phenomena that attended the crucifixion.

Etc etc etc. And so of course is the group of stars called Virgo, and on and on about how it's all an ancient arbitrary system of symbols. Fine.But there is still this very striking fact that you haven't commented on that I've repeated many times: the exact identity of the woman in Revelation 12 with the sign of Virgo in September of 3 BC: The constellation of Virgo rising in the sky on September 23 of 3 BC, as seen on the astronomy program in the video, rises engulfed with the sun and with the new moon at its feet. The description couldn't be more exact. It's just a random bunch of stars, yes, but since they do now make up this recognizable constellation, its exact correspondence with the image in Revelation can't just be a coincidence, it has to be what John saw. I don't see how you can rationalize that one away. It has to make you ask why scripture is referring to this random bunch of stars in terms that accept its status as a constellation depicting a woman called Virgo which is rising with the sun, with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at its "feet." It's in "heaven" and associated with twelve stars. This is no mere coincidence, NN.In the video he shows this event at 41:10 --Virgo rises clothed with the sun with the new moon at her feet but the sun is too bright to really make out the image, so I also mention that at 1:00:19 you can see the blood moon rising at the "feet" of Virgo on the day of the crucifixion, which is a clearer image than the first one.
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I think them significant because in their accepted form as a constellation called Virgo they exactly fit the description of the woman in Revelation 12. As I said the question is why SCRIPTURE makes this correspondence, not I, and not Larson and nobody else.

1. I want to point out that Larson who made the Star video found all the astrological signs in the process of looking for the Star. The search itself kept turning up the signs and symbols. When he started discovering them it worried him because as a Christian he knows we are not to follow astrology. He took a time out to study how the Bible uses the concepts and signs and concluded that what he was being led to by the astronomy program was not only valid in scripture but encouraged.2. I have to keep repeating that the amazing fit between the woman of Revelation 12 and the picture of the constellation Virgo on Rosh Hashana of 3BC is incontrovertible evidence that scripture acknowledges the traditional meanings of the constellations, which means they must be considered to be the source of "signs" we are to pay attention to in understanding prophecy.That one image is open and shut evidence that scripture uses such signs, but all the other correlations Larson turned up about that date as the conception of Christ and also the crucifixion, are really not subject to other interpretations.3. Constellations are mentioned in the book of Job: The Bear, Orion, the Pleiades, and "the constellations of the south," in chapters 9 and 38, as creations of God. Constellations you understand, not stars and galaxies but those artificial man-defined star groups arranged to depict some kind of figure to which a meaning is given. "the constellations in their seasons?"4. From all this it appears that there is SOME place in God's plan for meaning to be found in the constellations of the stars. Not something to worship, not a guide for our lives, but some kind of meaning related to HIS purposes. "Signs in the heavens" is a familiar biblical phrase. Well, what sort of "signs" are we to have in mind? Psalm 19 describes the heavens as speaking or communicating. Romans 10:17 refers to this psalm to say the Jews knew from the heavenly signs when Messiah was to come.This is all discussed on the Star website.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The timing is VERY important. This triple passing of Regulus by Jupiter occurred in Leo just before the conception of Christ. I "don't believe" WHAT? What I believe is that he WAS overthrown AS KING. He's always King whether recognized or not. Riding into Jerusalem on the donkey, for instance, is something Kings did to announce their reign. Well Aries IS linked to Jesus, being the symbol of the Lamb of God that marks the month in which He was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb. But the reason the blood moon in Virgo is significant is that it echoes the image at Rosh Hashana in 3 BC, when the moon was the new moon at her feet, while at the crucifixion it's a full blood moon, also at her feet. I personally find it a very touching rounding-out image of his life, his birth and death as son of Israel his mother. The moon at the feet seems to be a symbol of the offpsring of the figure Virgo.The moon being frequently in Virgo at Rosh Hashana doesn't always put it at the feet of the constellation, and again, all the other events have to be figured in to appreciate the significance of that date as the Annunciation or conception of Christ. No one event, particularly a common event, would be sufficient. Of course they believed it. Either they weren't Jewish and needed that information since the star hadn't been that specific; or they were Jewish and unfamiliar with Judea and needed to be pointed toward Bethlehem. Many good reasons they might have been Jewish have been discussed.If the blood moon wasn't visible the night of the crucifixion then Peter was wrong to say to the crowd assembled at Pentecost that they had all witnessed the signs. That would mean looking for a different date for the crucifixion.

It's impossible to explain then, how it is that the Woman of Revelation 12 is the exact spittin image of this mythological sign.And I refer you to Message 624 for other references to constellations in scripture.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

After Pentecost they definitely knew he was King Messiah, and the apostle John's book of Revelation certainly pictures him as King of Kings, to come again and reign over Earth. The title of this post should be a clue that I am putting together different events to add up to one special or rare event. If April 3,33AD as the day of the crucifixion, many different things had to come together to point to that date. The blood moon occurred at the time of Jesus' death and it rose at the feet of the sign of Virgo. All that together is NOT common.

I agree, David.

Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit was sent by the ascended Christ to empower them. The first sign of the empowerment was Peter's bold speech to the crowd. Having seen the risen Jesus over forty days they knew He was supernaturally empowered, but it took Pentecost to give them the power themselves. In any case they knew their Messiah was God and King at that point and went out preaching it, whereas before they had been holed up in private for fear of the Jews. There isn't one thing in the entire Bible that has failed, and as for Revelation we understand most of it to describe the Day of the Lord (also known as The Great Tribulation) which is mentioned a number of times in the OT, when God's wrath will come upon the whole Earth. That hasn't happened yet.But again, that book shows Christ in His kingly role.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

How can a prophecy of the future have failed before its time has come?