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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 136 of 163 (877925)
06-23-2020 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 5:33 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,

AZ writes:

As I said in Message 124 there is no evidence of any kind for the beginning, how t=0 came about. All there are, all there may ever be, are speculations.

I did not ask for evidence. I asked for your opinion of a possible source that could produce the energy that had to exist that began to expand?

According to the first law of thermodynamics energy can not be created.

So to get around that law it has to be dispensed with so that energy could be created.

If the universe is all that there is as has been stated many times having no outside. Energy had to exist or be created in and from the universe. Since the laws of Physics is operational in the universe how do we dispense with the 1st law of thermodynamics in the universe to allow the energy to be created.

The energy would have to be created outside of the universe prior to the universe existing in order for the energy to be used to form the universe. Where it would be possible for the laws of the universe to be dispensed with.

But if the energy that the universe was formed from was formed in the universe it would have been subject to the laws of the universe. That energy would have to have formed between T=0 and T=10-44 as the universe existed at T=10-44.

So my observation is that the energy had to exist prior to the existence of the universe or had to be created instantly at T=0 as it was expanding at T=10-44.

There have been attempts to overcome this problem.
Guth proposed a zero energy universe which created zero energy that formed the universe as was needed during formation. REJECTED

Hartley/ Hawking instanton. REJECTED It would require a vacuum to begin to exist.

String theory proposed but never caught on. It would have required a vacuum for the branes to pop into existence in and bang together.

Inflation was invented to solve the 18 major problems with the standard theory. It is a totally assumed event. In March of 2014 it was announced evidence had been found to support inflation. In January 2015 that article was updated to say it was not what they expected. In other words they jumped to conclusions that did not bear out what they thought it did.

In conclusion:

We are still stuck at T=10-44 and everybody has stopped looking for real answers and are looking for answers that will agree with what they have been taught and what they believe.

Glad to see you agree that scientist can be wrong.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 1:53 PM ICANT has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14648
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 163 (877926)
06-23-2020 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
06-23-2020 1:19 PM


Re: AZ
ICANT writes:

I did not ask for evidence. I asked for your opinion of a possible source that could produce the energy that had to exist that began to expand?

They know that you are a Pastor and that I am a believer and they know that we are subtly trying to get them to consider God as a rational idea...but they never will, because humans by and large do not want such a powerful Deity that may interfere with their free-willed freethinking evidence based lifestyle. They likely will argue that they dont believe in our God, but much of their rationale comes from the perceptions of the God found in the Bible which they know about yet have never met. dwise1 is becoming frustrated with Kleinman because Kleinman wont fess up to being a proponent of Intelligent Design but, rather, attempts to convince secular science that his math is superior to their usual knowledge.

I have a question for you though, Pastor. You mentioned before that you were writing a book. Do you see yourself finishing it in the next year?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 1:19 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 2:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 138 of 163 (877930)
06-23-2020 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 5:33 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,

AZ writes:

What I do know is that ancient peoples all over the world sought to explain the world in the face of their ignorance and invented deities and creation stories based on nothing but the visions and insistences of what we today would call religious zealots.

Have you ever entertained the idea that they had that belief because they had been told stories of the creation events that had been passed down by word of mouth. You do know that there has never been a people discovered in the world that did not worship some kind of God. Are you then trying to tell me that they all invented a god to worship?

AZ writes:

We know how the forces and the quarks condensed out of the intense energies that existed after the inflationary epoch.

I thought quarks was energy. You can get 8 time the energy from the fusion of quarks you can get from Nuclear Fusion.

Are you sure that quarks are not energy but are formed by energy. If so what is energy?

How do you know the inflationary epoch took place? Please present
evidence.

AZ writes:

My hope, my speculation, is that as human intellect and technology progress we will uncover the physics that answers the origins questions.

Is it possible in this polarized society we live in to ever discover anything new concerning creation?

If people study any subject with a closed mind they will never find anything they don't already believe. That goes for scientist as well as religious people.

I preach and teach what the original Bible texts say and most religious people can not grasp any of it as they know what they have been taught and what they believe. So if what I say does not agree with what they already believe they do not hear what I say.

Example: Jesus said his body would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. He was resurrected as it began to dawn toward the First day of the week. That day followed the Sabbath day which began at 6:00 PM at the close of Saturday. But I am considered a Heretic because I believe Jesus was buried Wednesday prior to 6:00 PM. Which is required for the body to have been in the ground 72 hours (3 days and 3 nights).

Why am I wrong according to most so called Christians in America? Well for some reason Jesus is considered a Liar because the Catholic Church has taught for over 1500 years that He was crucified on Good Friday. That is what people have been taught and what they believe and they don't want to be bothered by the facts so they don't hear them.

Are you sure you are not in the same class with them?

You do seem and I say seem to hope for better answers.

AZ writes:

Unfortunately, I won’t be around to see this play out and I have grave concerns whether humanity will survive long enough to do this.

I also hope and pray that a generation will come along that will have inquisitive minds, take what they are taught with a grain of salt, and then look for the truth for themselves using the mind that God has given to them to reason with.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2020 5:45 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 139 of 163 (877933)
06-23-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
06-23-2020 1:53 PM


Re: AZ
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

I have a question for you though, Pastor. You mentioned before that you were writing a book. Do you see yourself finishing it in the next year?

Probably not as I am having too hard of a time with the chapter that will cover the current scientific view of creation.

Nobody anywhere will discuss and present any evidence for the scientific view. All they want to do is tell me how ignorant and uneducated I am. But they never present any evidence that could convince anybody of what they say they believe. I am sure you have noticed the lack of scientific evidence presented in any post since cavediver's absence. There are other sites that are the same.

I do keep hoping.

If you would like to read a little of the religious side of my book email me and I will send you some of it in Word format. My email is available in my profile. Just put book in the subject line.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 1:53 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 140 of 163 (877936)
06-23-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
06-22-2020 4:23 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

The one we're talking about. Don't you read your own posts?

Sure I know what I asked and you assumed I was talking about the static universe of Einstein.

The current view is not proven to be true as was the one of Einstein. But those two are not the only possibilities.

ringo writes:

What has that got to do with it? The laws of physics go back to the Big Bang.

Please explain to me how a set of laws can control the creation of the universe if they did not exist prior to the event of creation.

If they were created as a part of the event they would not have been in control of the event.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 06-22-2020 4:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 06-23-2020 5:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 141 of 163 (877954)
06-23-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
06-23-2020 2:44 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

The current view is not proven to be true as was the one of Einstein. But those two are not the only possibilities.


The current view is the best one according to the evidence that we have now.

ICANT writes:

Please explain to me how a set of laws can control the creation of the universe if they did not exist prior to the event of creation.


Who said it was the current laws that controlled the event?

ICANT writes:

If they were created as a part of the event they would not have been in control of the event.


So they weren't in control of the event. What's the problem with that?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 2:44 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 06-23-2020 5:23 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32951
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 142 of 163 (877958)
06-23-2020 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
06-23-2020 5:07 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Arguments like the fantasies from ICANT are certainly worth a laugh or three.

The spark that starts a forest fire is not in control of the event and in reality does not exist even while the event is evolving.

Even if ICANT wants the God he creates to be the cause of the universe reality shows that it is most likely just like the spark; not in control of anything and in fact has long been extinguished.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 06-23-2020 5:07 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 143 of 163 (877960)
06-23-2020 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
06-23-2020 2:16 PM


Re: AZ
Have you ever entertained the idea that they had that belief because they had been told stories of the creation events that had been passed down by word of mouth. You do know that there has never been a people discovered in the world that did not worship some kind of God. Are you then trying to tell me that they all invented a god to worship?

Isn't this what I said? Ancient peoples invented deities and creation stories. Yes, all of them. Sentient beings with an ability for creative abstract thinking make up monsters, myths, demons and dragons to fill the void of ignorance. It's a property of human evolutionary development. Read Joseph Campbell.

I thought quarks was energy. You can get 8 time the energy from the fusion of quarks you can get from Nuclear Fusion.

All matter is energy in a different form and vice versa. That is what E=mc2 is all about.

Your own hero Dr. Hawking says so in that lecture you cited.

Quarks are fermions. Matter particles. Fermion - Wikipedia

How do you know the inflationary epoch took place? Please present
evidence.

You're as able to search for those sites as am I, Reverend.

If you want to claim intellectual deficiency or cognitive disassociation let me know. I'll help find someone willing to walk you through a Google Search, because I am not willing to put up with this BS.

Is it possible in this polarized society we live in to ever discover anything new concerning creation?

That polarization is socio-political. It is not part of the scientific process that holds more sway in the larger community of scientists.

If people study any subject with a closed mind they will never find anything they don't already believe. That goes for scientist as well as religious people.

Then you are not close enough to the discipline to understand the checks and balances ALL true Scotsmen Scientists are required to follow.

Do the names Andrew Wakefield, Paul Cameron, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons mean anything to you?

That is what people have been taught and what they believe and they don't want to be bothered by the facts so they don't hear them.

Are you sure you are not in the same class with them?

Oh, Reverend, I have been so wrong about so many things in my life. I learned a long time ago not to trust half of what I think and to question the other half. That is why I have read and studied so many things and have had to change my views on so many things.

At this point I know I am not an expert on anything but I also know I am very well versed in a broader range of subjects and disciplines than most humans will achieve in their lifetimes. And yes, I rely on the field of experts in the sciences because I have personally seen the benefits and studied the histories. I have experienced the successes and the failures and I have been a part of the enforcement of the scientific discipline. I know where the bodies are buried.

I know, Reverend, as well as any man can know anything in this life, that your gods and your religions are poisons to the mind of the human species. Your bible says the love of money is the root of all evil, when, in fact, it is your religions that are the root of all evil in this world. One but need read and understand the history of humanity to see the evil hand of religion behind every strongman, warlord and bloody belligerent from the khans in the east to the kings in the west.

It is you, Reverend, that has been captured by the demons of myth and mystery. Your religious fervor is what rules you, not critical independent thought.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 2:16 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 06-24-2020 3:54 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 144 of 163 (877967)
06-24-2020 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by AZPaul3
06-23-2020 5:45 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,

AZ writes:

Isn't this what I said? Ancient peoples invented deities and creation stories.

But why did they create a god?
Why would they invent creation stories?

They had nothing to give them a hint that either took place.
As uneducated as they were and uncivilized as they had no phones, TV's, auto's, planes, or even houses. Yet they had the imagination to invent gods and creation stories.

AZ writes:

All matter is energy in a different form and vice versa.

Energy can form matter, and matter can be turned into energy, yes.

AZ writes:

Quarks are fermions. Matter particles.

And yes quark fusion produces 8 times the energy of nuclear fusion.
Quark fusion produces eight times more energy than nuclear fusion - GlobalGoodness

AZ writes:

You're as able to search for those sites as am I, Reverend.

Yes and I did. I can't find anything that can begin to convince me inflation took place. I do find a lot of negative reports on inflation.

If inflation started up and lasted for a nano second or less I have 2 questions.

What started it and what slowed it down?

You do know that inflation in a hypothesis not a theory.

AZ writes:

That polarization is socio-political. It is not part of the scientific process that holds more sway in the larger community of scientists.

You been drinking too much of the koolaid.

AZ writes:

Then you are not close enough to the discipline to understand the checks and balances ALL true Scotsmen Scientists are required to follow.

Close enough to know that money talks. Grants pay salaries and expenses, without the grants there would be no operational money.
And you want to tell me politics has nothing to do with science.

AZ writes:

Your religious fervor is what rules you,

Since you have become an expert on me I would like for you to tell me what I believe and what I teach. It seems like you and Tangle know more about what I believe than I do.

Coddle an 80 year old man and tell me what you think I believe, because I think you got me mixed up with someone else. I await your enlightenment.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2020 5:45 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2020 8:37 AM ICANT has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 145 of 163 (877975)
06-24-2020 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
06-24-2020 3:54 AM


Re: AZ
AZ writes:
Isn't this what I said? Ancient peoples invented deities and creation stories.

But why did they create a god?
Why would they invent creation stories?

Good grief, Reverend, I covered this. Pay attention.

quote:
Message 143 Sentient beings with an ability for creative abstract thinking make up monsters, myths, demons and dragons to fill the void of ignorance. It's a property of human evolutionary development. Read Joseph Campbell.

That's why.

And yes quark fusion produces 8 times the energy of nuclear fusion.

So what? Did you scatterbrain on me again?

I do find a lot of negative reports on inflation.

That may be so but the mechanism does result in a universe that matches our observations by resolving problems that General Relativity and QFT, known to be exceptionally accurate, leave open in the early universe. No one has yet put forward anything as productive and predictive as inflation theory. Until there is a better resolution inflation theory is the best answer we have.

You been drinking too much of the koolaid.
And you want to tell me politics has nothing to do with science.

Remember the subject was finding the new physics to explain cosmic origins. When it comes to the science of cosmology physicists don't care if the king is left or right or if the donor is Gates or God. The only thing of importance is the efficacy of the physics.

Coddle an 80 year old man and tell me what you think I believe

You believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there.

I don't care what specific dogmas you may follow. This is enough to call into question your intellectual disposition on a whole range of subjects.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 06-24-2020 3:54 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2020 12:37 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 146 of 163 (878324)
06-29-2020 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by AZPaul3
06-24-2020 8:37 AM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,

AZ writes:

Good grief, Reverend, I covered this. Pay attention.

I was paying attention. That is the reason I sked the two questions.

I wanted to know why or where they would get a notion to create a deity?
I have a lot of other questions about a creature that evolved from a single cell organism. Like were did the mind evolve from? Where did the conscious evolve from? Where did the imagination come from for a god?

You are the one telling me this creature that is supposed to have evolved from the same ancestors chimps did has a mind, consciousness, and the ability to know good and evil.

So this creature had to make up some god to make up for his deficiencies.

AZ writes:

Sentient beings with an ability for creative abstract thinking

Where and how did that sentient being evolve the afstract thinking ability from?

AZ writes:

So what? Did you scatterbrain on me again?

No I was just making a scientific statement of fact.

Provided two quarks being fused together producing 8 times nuclear fusion the quarks must be energy or did I miss something in the equation?

AZ writes:

That may be so but the mechanism does result in a universe that matches our observations by resolving problems that General Relativity and QFT

That is exactly what I would figure it to do. That is the exact reason that Alan Guth proposed inflation in the first place. In other words he developed a band aid that took care of a lot of the problems with the standard theory.

Problem is there is no evidence for how it began or how it slowed down and now has started increasing. That is something that took place in the imagination of Alan Guth, not in reality or in a lab. Talk about inventing creation stories Guth did because it was necessary as without inflation the BB falls flat on its face.

AZ writes:

The only thing of importance is the efficacy of the physics.

If that is the case why is everybody that disagrees with the main stream thought system get blacklisted and ostracized?

AZ writes:

You believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there.

I don't believe a figment of the imagination; an illusion or apparition is any more than a figment of the imagination or illusion of the mind.

I do not believe in gods. I do believe in one God. I do believe in demonic beings. I have met both and I prefer Gods presence.

I believe the universe had a beginning to exist as the Bible telle me it did.
The scientific community has been trying to figure out how the universe had a beginning to exist every since Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding, With no results.

If the universe did not exist in any form, it had to have a beginning to exist from non existence. That is an impossibility.

Scientist have proposed an instanton, and branes, as possible sources of the energy used to produce the universe we see today. The problem is that each of those have to have existence in which for them to appear in. Where did that existence come from?

What ever that existence was it required an unending supply of energy to create the universe out of. I call that source God. Science can call that existence whatever they want to call it.

AZ writes:

I don't care what specific dogmas


I don't believe in a dogma I believe in a life style, of trying to follow the example Jesus set.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2020 8:37 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 6:17 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 6:25 AM ICANT has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 147 of 163 (878409)
06-29-2020 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
06-29-2020 12:37 AM


Re: AZ
I wanted to know why or where they would get a notion to create a deity?

An extension of animism. First, reverence for the animals and plants that sustained them then the awesome powers of the storms, volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, etc. that so terrified them, add in some apophenia and pareidolia and, presto ... powerful beings to be feared.

Like were did the mind evolve from? Where did the conscious evolve from? Where did the imagination come from for a god?

Emergent properties from the electro-chemistry of the physically advanced neural locus we call a brain in a species of social animal that evolved abstract reasoning and creative thinking and planning capabilities combined with what I said above. That is where gods come from.

You are the one telling me this creature that is supposed to have evolved from the same ancestors chimps did has a mind, consciousness, and the ability to know good and evil.

Precisely. Except for the good/evil part. Those are human constructs that came about from the eons of experience in the "social" animal aspect that is characteristic of all primate species. Early hominids didn't know or care about good and evil. All they know was safe, warm and happy from deadly, sick and sad.

You really should read some Joseph Campbell.

So this creature had to make up some god to make up for his deficiencies.

No. We made up the gods to explain the great and terrible powers that moved our lives. At the time we were too ignorant to separate the natural and the supernatural. There were the spirits of the bison and forests that gave themselves for our benefit and the spirits of the sky and the mountains that would become angry and violent.

Where and how did that sentient being evolve the abstract thinking ability from?

Lots of different hypotheses having to do with the development of language abilities in our early socialization schemes and the power of cooperative planning in the hunt.

One of my favorite thoughts is of a group of pre-proto-humans sitting around a fire when one of the young women, feeling safe, warm and fed starts humming. No real tune but kind of a cat purr in happy tones.

Language starts with music as abstraction develops in the hominid consciousness.

Provided two quarks being fused together producing 8 times nuclear fusion the quarks must be energy or did I miss something in the equation?

I don't know what this has to do with this discussion ... but since you asked.

They are not talking about two quarks being fused but two baryons being fused. Baryons are a three-quark composite particle like a proton or a neutron. You have to be careful with the science press. They are too often stupid and don't get things right.

The baryons in this case are heavy bottom-quark baryons, which don't actually exist, but contain a bottom quark and one each of the normal up and down quarks. Two of them, the math models say, could be fused to form a hypothetical 6 quark baryon.

The energy required to do the fusion is enormous but the result, which is highly unstable, disintegrates in a few pico-seconds releasing an even larger amount of energy. That extra energy comes from the rearrangement of the gluons (strong nuclear force bosons) in the two quite different baryons that emerge from the disintegration. The quarks are not turning into energy.

Problem is that the bottom quark is not a usual thing and would need to be made in an accelerator, requiring a big expense of energy, and it disintegrates in just a few pico-seconds itself. So you would have to make the bottom quarks, get them into the proper configuration of heavy bottom-quark baryon then get two of these baryons to smash into each other and fuse all before the original bottom quarks disappear.

That's a tall order.

In other words he developed a band aid that took care of a lot of the problems with the standard theory.

That's the same box of band-aids Einstein used when he hypothesized the measure of the speed of light to be the same regardless of any frame of reference. The result solved many problems in special relativity and made predictions that held up to observation.

The same for Inflation theory. The same for the germ theory of disease and plate tectonics.

Our history is full of band-aids that actually work.

If that is the case why is everybody that disagrees with the main stream thought system get blacklisted and ostracized?

Oh, come on, Reverend, have you never heard of the Perimeter Institute? Leonard Susskind? Ivan Agullo? Paul Steinhardt? Lee Smolin?

Blacklisted/ostracized? Not even close. I don't know where you are getting your info but it is way wrong.

I don't believe a figment of the imagination; an illusion or apparition is any more than a figment of the imagination or illusion of the mind.

I do believe in one God. I do believe in demonic beings.

You contradict yourself. You *do* believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there. You are just too delusional to recognize your delusion.

I don't believe in a dogma I believe in a life style, of trying to follow the example Jesus set.

Of course you do.

You believe in Jesus? You believe in his teachings? You believe in the crucifixion? You believe in the resurrection?

That is dogma.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2020 12:37 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2020 10:44 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 11:39 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 148 of 163 (878419)
06-29-2020 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by AZPaul3
06-29-2020 6:17 PM


Re: AZ
HI AZ,

AZ writes:

You contradict yourself. You *do* believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there. You are just too delusional to recognize your delusion.

I told you I only believe in what I have met.

I have met a demon face to face and cast him out of a person. I have experienced that only one time in my life and no demon has ever dared to confront me since.

I believe in one God and I have met Him in person. I was not dreaming, as I was not asleep. I was wide awake with all my factualities operational.
I don't understand it I just know it happened.

AZ writes:

You believe in Jesus? You believe in his teachings? You believe in the crucifixion? You believe in the resurrection?

That is dogma.

Don't put words in my mouth as you might get me in trouble. I can do well enough on my own in that catagory.

I believe God came to earth in a physical form that was supposed to be called Emanuel which means God with us. Instead that human body was called Jesus for some reason by his earthly mother. On many occasions He claimed to be God. But the uneducated and educated mankind of 2000 years ago could not understand how God could take on the form of a man and come to earth and walk among mankind. Many today can still not understand it.

So let me state what I believe in no uncertain terms.

I believe God left the third heaven and took on the form of a human by entering into the world through a woman in a physical body. He grew, fulfilled the law, and taught His way for mankind to live and He went to Calvary and gave His life by sheding His blood on Calvary to make a way mankind could be reunited in fellowhip with Him. The original fellowship was broken by one man resulting in all mankind being condemned already. His death was to make a way mankind could be reunited with Him. John says it best:

quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So everyone who rejets God and His offering of a free full pardon will remain condemned. Yet all He requires us to do is accept His death to buy us back from the slavery that first man sold us into.

I call that belief by faith just like you accept the universe came to exist by faith and you also believe man evolved from non life by faith. I say you accept what you believe by faith as you have zero evidence for either having occurred as you believe they did.

If I am wrong and you have evidence now would be a good time to present it. Or you can give the scientific answer to both questions of how they began to exist.

I will get to the rest of your post at a later time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 11:52 PM ICANT has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 149 of 163 (878420)
06-29-2020 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ICANT
06-29-2020 10:44 PM


Re: AZ
I have met a demon face to face and cast him out of a person.
I believe in one God and I have met Him in person.
I believe God left the third heaven and took on the form of a human by entering into the world through a woman in a physical body.
etc
So everyone who rejets God and His offering of a free full pardon will remain condemned.

Unfortunately we have the same kinds of stories from believers in other religions with other gods and other demons. We also have equally fantastical stories from those known to be mentally delusional.

Sorry, Reverend, but you have a screw loose. I do not doubt that you believe your fantasies but the evidence of all history informs us this universe does not operate that way. But, we know that humans with loose screws do.

I say you accept what you believe by faith as you have zero evidence for either having occurred as you believe they did.

That is way wrong.

I do not know how the universe began nor do I know how life began. These are *not* articles of faith for me in the way they are for you.

If you hadn't noticed I am a hard and fast objective realist. I require a preponderance of evidence before accepting *any* proposition. In the absence of a preponderance I can only go where the present evidence logically points.

There is not enough evidence to conclude what/how the beginning of the universe happened. But the evidence we do have indicates that there was such a thing.

There is not enough evidence to conclude what/how the beginnings of life proceeded but the evidence we do have indicates that it most probably came from natural chemical interactions.

Except as a convenience in discussion I make no distinction between life and non-life. Chemistry reacts. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster and more prolonged. Replication, the start of what most would call life, appears from the evidence we do have to be nothing more than a set of chemical reactions in a repetitious cycle. How that first replicator came to be is not yet known. And should a cycle in motion cease, we call that death.

No need for faith in any of this. I accept the natural explanations, and expect only natural explanations because this universe has shown us nothing else but.

I have never been so off my nut that I have experienced anything, or known of anything viably reliable, that was not a natural physical phenomenon. Psychochemical stimulants exempted, of course.

I have no need of faith. I have reality.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2020 10:44 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2020 4:31 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2020 10:29 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 150 of 163 (878551)
07-01-2020 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by AZPaul3
06-29-2020 6:17 PM


Re: AZ
AZPaul3 writes:

One of my favorite thoughts is of a group of pre-proto-humans sitting around a fire when one of the young women, feeling safe, warm and fed starts humming. No real tune but kind of a cat purr in happy tones.


Gotta love it when women hum.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2020 1:39 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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