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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency and Insurrection
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


(2)
Message 339 of 438 (914105)
12-25-2023 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Percy
12-25-2023 9:19 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
The Republican MAGA faction is full mask-off fascist. They meet every single defining aspect of fascism, they're generally idiots, and hatemongering relies on emotion and is unfortunately often successful.
The Republican "sane" faction is still mostly fascist but is primarily self-serving powermongers who are perfectly comfortable using elements of fascism to acquire and achieve power, and their primary goal is the enrichment of the alread-wealthy.
The Democrat "progressives" are just-left-of-center and a minority that holds barely any power. They aren't socialist, not "true" leftists in any sense, but they're the closest we have in mainstream American politics. They'd like to reign in capitalism a bit, reduce the effects of the oligarchy, let workers unionize, possibly maybe socialize healthcare.
The "mainstream" Democrats, the ones in control of the party organization, are status-quo powermongers and are basically "fascist-lite." They know what's worked in the past and they're used to using culture-war tactics the same as the "sane" Republicans, just on the side that happens to benefit regular people more. I honestly can;t say whether any of them actually *believe* in what they talk about, because they so rarely make an actual effort to progress. They don't meet all of the characteristics of fascism, but they often meet several.
The reality of American politics is that it's all ruled by money, and few politicians keep their hands clean and their ideals intact, if they had them in the first place. Oligarchs and oligarch-funded interest groups make the real decisions, and American democracy is primarily based around the *illusion* of choice - we're only allowed to vote from among a pre-selected group of candidates, ones who are already primed and selected to support the status quo with very little change. There's no grand conspiracy here either - its a function of a two-party system and allowing money in politics to the degree that we do. You need money to run, oligarchs and corporate and special interests have money, they get an immediate overwhelming advantage in promoting candidates *they* would prefer in the primary stage and earlier. There's a reason that studies show that Americans don't get what we want from our legislators, even when an overwhelming majority of us agree, unless it just so happens to coincide with what the moneyed interests also want. If we want something and money says no, then we dont get it even if 70%+ of voters support it.
Change *is* possible - the Republicans in the space of around a decade were moved hard right but what started as the Tea Party and mutated into MAGA.
But there are precious few lawmakers who actually appear to care in any significant sense about the wellbeing of "regular" people. Words, rarely action.
On the domestic front I'll admit to having been pleasantly surprised by some of Biden's accomplishments, specifically relating to labor unions.
But of course American foreign policy between the two parties seems to range from "we're monsters but once a century or so can almost accidentally do something good" to "let's see if we can burn the world down, either for increased quarterly profits or to bring Jesus back."
I've always voted with Democrats as a "lesser of two evils," but lately given current events I find it impossible to voice a defense that they're actually "lesser." I'm aware of the differences but given the Democrats repeated lack of *actual action* to accomplish the things they run on, they ring hollow. I know Republicans would be worse, especially MAGA maniacs, but it's hard not to go full "doomer" right now. My cynicism has been escalating exponentially since Trump won the Presidency, and so far reality continues to still surprise and disappoint me.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 12-25-2023 9:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 12-26-2023 8:59 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 341 of 438 (914107)
12-26-2023 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Percy
12-26-2023 8:59 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
quote:
I'd be curious to see an actual list of qualities.
Ill just copy a rundown I did in a reply to Phat some time ago. There are several other definitions out there, but a reading of any should make any American feel...uncomfortable.
My rundown of Fascism to Phat a few months ago:
Fascism (and authoritarianism) is not "a government I dont like." It isnt even "a government with too many rules that restrict my freedom," though the political party seeking to restrict freedoms is the Republican party anyway.

Fascism has a set of characteristics. Both the Republicans and the Democrats meet some of these, to different degrees. The Democrats in general are fascist-lite. Reason to be concerned. The Trump-wing Republicans are full Nazi. Godwin's Law be damned, we're literally seeing the rise of fascism in the US, and it echoes its rise in Germany after WW1 with terrifying precision.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

"America first" has been the American-fascist slogan since forever. "Christian Nationalists" should sound familiar.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Again American conservatives are clearly embracing this one. They've supported overturning Roe v Wade forever. Theyre currently fearmongering against Trans rights (which are human rights). They've often supported literal actual torture (waterboarding, other "enhanced interrogation" techniques). They deny people their rights at the border (for all the panic about "caravans," these people were actually using the legal process they were entitled to - you present yourself at a border for consideration for refugee status, there's nothing illegal there).

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Today the Trans community appears to be the primary scapegoat. The very people you've mentioned as respecting promote anti-Trans propaganda. Tans people are not "groomers." Drag performers (who are mostly not Trans anyway) are not "groomers."

Supremacy of the Military

Do I even need to say anything here? Both parties are guilty of this one, but the Trump wing tries to go even further.

Rampant Sexism

Jordan Peterson is a good example of a manosphere misogynist. There are plenty of other examples. Democrats can be sexist too, but Republicans make the oppression of women through the enforcement of rigid traditional gender roles a party platform.

Controlled Mass Media

Trump and his cronies have been setting up their own media platforms for a while now, to out-fascist even Fox News. The news media in America has always been problematic - they're more about preserving the status quo, maintaining existing power structures and manufacturing consent, than about actually informing the public - but the outrage-fueled modern 24-hr news media has been leaning harder and harder to the right.
Edit for the current reply: I was too kind to the history of American media. "Problematic" was an understatement. Most of the media is another arm of oligarchy that works to manufacture consent for the outrageously vile foreign policy of the US. It is extremely difficult to find actual reporting where biases are minimized, and usually requires looking at how the same story is covered both by American media and a variety of international sources, preferably ones who have no horse in the race. Reuters and Associated press are better than the outlets that pick them up, but they dont have cable networks and are still insufficient alone.

Obsession with National Security

Ironic that Trump, arguably the largest threat to national security in our country's history, has always clamored for more authority to punish people for endangering it. Both the Republicans and Democrats love this one though - always wanting more police authority to strengthen the surveillance state.

Religion and Government are Intertwined

Christian Nationalists, again. The Democrats at least want actual religious freedom, meaning they support everyone's right to believe or not believe according to the dictates of their own conscience, and they recognize that this means government needs to just stay out of the matter. The Republicans only respect the freedom to worship Jesus however you please, and actively seek to ensconce their religious beliefs in law. The Trumpists are literally the American Taliban. They want the Christian version of Sharia Law.

Corporate Power is Protected

Both the Republicans and the Democrats are guilty here. America is an oligarchy more than anything else; especially since Citizens United (but before that too), the wealthy play both sides of the political aisle.

This is why there are no actual socialists in American government, Phat, no matter what Fox News has told you.

Labor Power is Suppressed

Both parties again, but again the Republicans are worse. American union movements have stagnated, in part because our labor protection laws are pathetic.
Edit for current reply: the Biden admin did make some very meaningful changes to the way unions can be formed, effectively changing the default to recognize the union unless the corporation can effectively argue against its formation, rather than the historical method where the default was that no union would be recognized unless the union could effectively justify itself. Considering the balance of power with newly-forming unions, this is huge, unironically one of the most important labor changes since before Reagan.

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

The Trump wing wins "bigly" here as well.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment

"Law and order" anyone?

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

For all the conservative winging about Hunter Biden and his sinister laptop, Hunter has never actually held any US government office.

Trump was all about appointing family to government positions. And his management style is the textbook definition of cronyism.

Fraudulent Elections

Trump and conservatives literally tried to overthrow a legal election by claiming a non-fraudulent election was fraudulent, simply because he lost. And he knew he lost. And he admitted he knew he lost, and lied about it anyway.

America has been sinking into fascism for years now. The Democrats are fascist-lite. The Republicans are completely fascist.
quote:
Immigration, Israel, homelessness, EV's.
The Israel issue is the area where I feel the most disgust, shame, and disappointment. Killing noncombatant civilians is evil, full stop. The US is providing munitions to a state that can only rationally be described as committing genocide, and on top of that we're running interference in the UN to prevent any manner of actual consequences. The 10 stages of genocide are absolutely gut-wrenching when you compare it against what is currently happening and what has been happening for decades.
quote:
But I'm not ready to stoke the flames by voting for Darth Traitor. I'd feel guilty and dirty every day afterward.
There's absolutely no chance that I vote for Orange Hitler, who is somehow taking the mask even *more* off lately.
I just don't feel a lot better about voting for Biden. The mathematical situation related to American elections puts us in a terrible spot even outside of the money issue, which makes things worse.
I very much want to feel hopeful. I find it very difficult as I continue to see images of children being bombed with weapons made and paid for by my tax dollars, or Israeli politicians and diplomats who are literally actually calling for the extermination of an entire ethnic group, for which there can be absolutely *no* excuse. This is like Tony Stark in the first Iron Man, except I'm not the CEO of the company making the weapons.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 12-26-2023 8:59 AM Percy has not replied

  
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