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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 89 of 334 (510568)
06-01-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dr Jack
06-01-2009 7:52 AM


MrJack writes:
Were DNA - in any way - different from its actual form this wouldn't work; so, you see, DNA is not separable from its chemical form because the system it codes for requires that chemical form.
Precisely. Codes can be written in ink. DNA, on the other hand, is the ink. It is the chemical properties of DNA that matter. It is a catalyst, not an abstract code like that used by humans.
To use another example, I can write this message in a number of fonts, font sizes, underlined, italicized, bolded, etc. You can not do this with DNA. You can not print out a line of A's, T's, C's, and G's on a microscopic typewriter, insert it into E. coli, and expect the corresponding protein to be produced. In the same way, I do not chemically react with a newspaper in order to read it.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 90 of 334 (510569)
06-01-2009 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by WordBeLogos
06-01-2009 12:48 PM


WordBeLogos writes:
Agree, AFTER, life has arisen. Code is the problem. The laws of physics and chemistry do not account for them.
Chemistry and physics do not work without the same type of code found in DNA. Those codes can be found in the spin, charge, and mass of particles and the orbitals of electrons. For example, the code for neon is:
1s^2 2s^2 2p^6
The code for a W boson is:
Charge -1, Spin 1, Mass 80.4
These are as much a code as DNA.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 94 of 334 (510589)
06-01-2009 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by WordBeLogos
06-01-2009 4:00 PM


WorldBeLogos writes:
Tag, please note the defnition being used.
Coded information, a system of symbols used by an encoding and decoding mechanism, which transmits a message that is independent of the communication medium.
And I showed you what that symbolic code was. For neon it is 1s^2 2s^2 2p^6. For the W Boson it is Charge -1, Spin 1, Mass 80.4.
Your examples contains no plan or instructions to build a specific structure or molecule,
Yes, they do. The electron orbital code specifies the chemical reactions it is planned for in the same way that DNA does. This orbital code specifies whether or not an atom will take or give up eletrons, and how easily this occurs. The electron code specifies the arrangement of atoms that it binds to.
In fact, you can see the symbols here:
Pic
The quantum code found in particles specifies the plan for it's path through a cloud chamber and it's interactions with different fields.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 107 of 334 (510699)
06-02-2009 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Dr Jack
06-02-2009 3:51 PM


Re: Communication Mediums - Talk with dead DNA!
Mr Jack writes:
Creationists are usually pretty simplistic in their understanding of Biology so I'm guessing that's as far as they got.
Indeed.
Another fact worth mentioning is DNA tertiary structure as it relates to DNA binding. A good example is the Arabinose operon. In this example two proteins bind to the DNA creating a loop in the DNA. This tertiary shape blocks access to the promoter.
What happens when you fold a page of code? Nothing.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 116 of 334 (510715)
06-03-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by WordBeLogos
06-02-2009 6:37 PM


WordBeLogos writes:
In Shannon’s model there is a encoder that sends a digital message that is decoded by a decoder using agreed upon symbols. When this process is complete with all three parts, we have digital communication. This definition makes a clear distinction between things that are communication systems and things that are not.
Then please define for us who is the encoder, the decoder, and the symbols that are used in a genetic system, and please show at what point an intelligence is observed as part of the system.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 144 of 334 (510909)
06-04-2009 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 7:38 PM


WordBeLogos writes:
It still may be possible someday, but as of right now, we observe that no successful explanation has ever been produced.
But you are taking it one step further. You are saying that no such mechanism exists. Surely you can see the difference, no? If you want to claim that no natural mechanism exists by which coded information can be produced then you need to show this. I don't envy the task.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 145 of 334 (510911)
06-04-2009 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 6:00 PM


WordBeLogos writes:
If your computer automatically logs onto Nortons website and downloads antivirus updates, communication takes place, but not between conscious minds. Parts of the machines communicate with other parts, to read and carry out the instructions. Therefore, communication is taking place. It’s just machines communicating via computer languages.
But what happens when that code is duplicated and changed? Could new variation in the code give rise to new information? That is what happens in DNA, the code evolves without the intervention of intelligence.
By observation, all computer programs, all codes (TCP/IP etc.) and all symbolic communication systems outside the realm of life, (radio, tribal drum beats, thermometers etc) are all ultimately designed by conscious minds.
Really? Who observed the first DNA strand when it formed?
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 157 of 334 (511020)
06-05-2009 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by WordBeLogos
06-05-2009 3:53 PM


WordBeLogos writes:
When we see an arrangement of pebbles that say "It is appointed unto man once to die, then after this the judgment," is this just the inherent physical properties of pebbles lining up according to "laws of nature?"
According to your argument, as soon as we observe humans arranging pebbles then we must assume that all unknown arrangement of pebbles are also intelligently guided.

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