Who to believe , Ham or Ross?

Which are? Nothing very serious, nothing we really have to worry about I guess, as God didn't REALLY destroy everybody in a Flood and doesn't REALLY intend to destroy the world again, right? There is not the SLIGHTEST clue that it is a parable. The ONLY way it is a parable in any sense at all is that God's parables are told in REAL LIVE events in REAL time. I have to support the fact that if you can't trust parts of a map it's no longer useful as a map? Allah has no Son, neither religion offers a Savior who died for our sins. That's enough for starters.Edited to correct a bunch of quote codes, and erased the record of my edits at the same time since they were accumulating to absurd proportions.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-28-2005 10:04 PM

You may not be aware that nearly all highway maps contain wholly fictional towns to foil illegal copyists. Take "Canadian Club City" in the southwest reaches of Oklahoma City, for instance. I could still get from Sugden to Gotebo just fine, even though CCC didn't exist.

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The story of the Flood is told as straight history.
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But, as has been pointed out to you some hundreds of times now, there's not a shred of evidence that indicates that it ever happened! Why do you think that might be?

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1) Because evos are blind to the tons of evidence and misinterpret it.
2) In a contest between God's word and Science, God wins.Both of which have been pointed out by me some hundreds of times now.Edited for grammar correction.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-28-2005 10:25 PM

Jude quotes one of the Apocryphal books. I don't think Jesus does. The Apocrypha are good teaching. That doesn't make them canon class.
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{Edited for grammar.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-28-2005 10:26 PM

There is no such thing as a perfect analogy but since you have gone there, I'll up the ante: The kind of altering of the Bible we're talking about is far beyond adding a fictional section of a city, if such a thing even occurs, which is a pretty weird idea I must say. By denying the reality of the Flood, the reality of the creation of the first man and woman with no ancestors, the reality of original sin, the reality of all the miracles from the parting of the red sea to the virgin birth, you are removing THE major centers of the Biblical map and detouring readers to the Slough of Despond, the Badlands and Nowheresville.

The lesson for the Great Unwetting? It's a morality and obedience story. It's an exaggeration to get folk to think about what it means to obey. It's a classic warning story just like the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Absodamnlutely. GOD is not some bling-bling pimpdaddy that will get all upset if somebody disrespects him. Absodamnlutely. One dead giveaway is that there isn't one story but at least two. Just like the Creation myths, the flood myths are simply anthologies of folktales. LOL. You'll have some problems then. A map is almost always inaccurate and behind times. Roads are under repair, there are detours and bridges out. If the map shows a bridge are you gonna trust the map and drive over it even if it's gone? LOL. Drivel. The GOD's still the same. The lessons are still the same.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, you've found the god you like I guess. Can't argue with somebody's preferences, especially if they're invented out of thin air. What can I say? Enjoy.

Well, it's the one found in the Bible and definitely the one Jesus spoke of.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Well, it's the one found in the Bible and definitely the one Jesus spoke of.

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Just a FEW verses giving a different picture than the one you have. I could also quote all the passages where Jesus talks about Hell and the "Woe" passages. Or you can put "hell" into the search box at Blue Letter Bible and find them yourself.This is Jesus Himself describing the destruction of the flood and saying that His return will be accompanied by a similar destruction and this is not described as a fiction:
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.The following is a quote of John the Baptist:
John 3:35: The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."The Apostle Peter on the meaning of the flood, not hinting that it wasn't a real event
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Then the nameless author of Hebrews gives the meaning of the Flood story, and doesn't call it a parable, describes it as actual history:
Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.The following is the Apostle John on Jesus when He returns:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.The following is a quote of John the Baptist:
John 3:35: The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Well, I've dealt with all of the passages you mention at one time or another here so pick the one you'd like to start with and we'll discuss it.And by the way, I seriously doubt that most Christians will get to heaven but most Atheists will.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Really? Perhaps you could go to http://EvC Forum: Biased Interpretation? -->EvC Forum: Biased Interpretation? and discuss the problems with interpretation and those things which blind the evos. Please don't just point to that idiot-savant Lucifer.

True, some of the stories that Jesus told were classified as parables by Him (farmer and the spreading of seeds, for example). However, most were not. Is the "prodical son" story true or a parable? What is your Biblical justification for your answer? What about the story of the beggar Lazarus? The vineyard owner and the tenents? Lost coin? Lost sheep?I realize that Jesus speaks of the days of Noah. However, what culture was he in? How better to communicate than to provide an example that they are familiar with? Sort of like a modern teacher using Superman or Star Trek examples. They are not real but are useful. And...Christ was the greatest teacher.

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Likewise, I am a creationist but that doesn't mean I'm Ken Ham, I'm a completely different animal. I'm not a YEC SHraff. I WAS

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It's not your belief in God, mike, that has ever been an issue. It's not even your past belief in YEC that has been problematic.It's your insistance that your religious beliefs have any evidence or logic to support them, that has been the source of most of our disagreements.

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It's certainly not a science book nor does it present itself as anything of the kind, but it certainly does present itself as history: This happened, that happened, I did, he did, she did, they did, he said, in the days of such and such... etc

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So, does that mean that any book, especially religious books, which present themselves as history are to be believed as literally true and historically accurate?

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I'm starting to think this whole debate is in existence because of men and their interpretations of the bible. I think I'll go back to how I used to be. It used to be simple, the bible said that God done some things, and science gathered facts, and the two weren't really contradictory unless one went looking for problems.

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You're just starting to think this? Anyway, I'll go one step further.I would say that this whole debate exists because a small but vocal minority in the US (and spreading, ugh) believes that they have cornered the market on Ultimate Truth (tm) and wish to force everyone to believe as they do by dressing up their religion in a lab coat and trying to sneak it by the US Constitution.