Are we prisoners of sin

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Its good for religious people to keep in mind that sin is 'missing the mark of perfection' rather then committing some sort of evil

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It is not missing the mark of perfection. It is an offense against religious or moral law.Perfection means nothing unless there is a criteria to judge against. IOW, to be without fault one has to know what makes them at fault. Of course once someone repents and makes restitution they are no longer at fault.

After God had finished his creation he stood back momentarily and beheld what his might had accomplished and what he saw made him declare verbally or not that it was very good. God is perfect and when he describes something as being very good, he is describing something that is perfect.Men had no sin; he was perfect a sinless man. So what is perfection? It merely means a sinless state. As sin is like a mark on a perfectly white fabric man was stained with sin and now he is no longer perfect. Sin did not exist primarily thus the fabric of God’s creation was utterly unmarred as white as a newly laid layer of snow thus perfect. Angels are also perfect beings, they are sinless and as for the one’s (Lucifer and his gang) that sinned we know what became of them. If angels are condemned to hell due their sin, why wouldn’t humans also meet the same end, God is just; he treats all his subjects with fairness. And God is also perfection (Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: The word of Jehovah is tried; He is a shield unto all them that take refuge in him.) and he will not occupy the same space with imperfection. For just as darkness will eventually be outshine by the brightness of light any imperfection that happens to find itself in God’s presence will be outshined so to speak ultimately by the brightness of God’s holy glory.Now does God require us to be perfect yes, Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Again here we see that God is perfect and he demands perfection from his followers. However seeing that due to our fallen nature no human can ever achieve the perfect state that humanity once possessed in the garden God has offered us his help. He has send us Jesus, washed by the blood of Jesus we can regain perfection 1Jn 1:7 But if we live in the light, as God does, we share in life with each other. And the blood of his Son Jesus washes all our sins away. Therefore it is crucial for anyone to own up his/her sins as this is the first step to becoming washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ. In fact see what is written further on in that same chapter:

1John 1:8 If we say that we have not sinned, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth isn't in our hearts.
1John 1:9 But if we confess our sins to God, he can always be trusted to forgive us and take our sins away.
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and his message isn't in our hearts.

God demands perfection and Jesus can provide you with that perfection. Perfection is a free gift not acquired by one’ good deeds so that no man can boast that he is better than others. For in God’s eyes we are all the same whether poor or rich slave or free, if you are in Christ Jesus your status weathers and all God sees is a perfect child, in fact God will even forget about your sins at once; Heb 10:17 Then I will forget about their sins and no longer remember their evil deeds.".Good works will not get you into heaven, the acts we perform to achieve righteousness are like filthy rags, see what God says here

Isa 64:6 We are unfit to worship you; each of our good deeds is merely a filthy rag. We dry up like leaves; our sins are storm winds sweeping us away.

.Therefore we must desist from trying to work our way into heaven let God usher us through the pearly gates. Let Him change you from within and you will also start changing on the outside. Let Him to the work, all you have to do is to accept the free gift of salvation that will attain you the perfection that you need in order to face God in heaven some day. Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Perfection is the inability to express oneself properly? One would think that if a perfect being described something as being "very good" then it would be describing something that is precisely "very good".Also, please stop quoting scripture as if it had any bearing on the real world. Some people have a difficult time making the transition into make-believe without warning.

I believe you just agreed with what many of the people posting here have been telling you. If I don't believe that God exists, how can I miss a mark set by him. If he doesn't exist, he can't set a mark. Perhaps I could miss the mark set by the Jewish and early Christian writers, and while I admit, they got a few things correct about the mark I think is worth striving for, a number of things they say I disagree with.For example, I'm within a month of proposing to my girlfriend. I have the ring bought and the day and time set and all is in readiness, but when my girlfriend asks me about anything relating to marriage, I have to prevaricate (lie) or the whole surprise is gone, and she wants the surprise, trust me. So, if lying, in all cases, is a "sin" then I can definitely disagree with that sentiment.I have a degree in Philosophy, and most of my focus was on ethics and morality. I have thought long and hard, and bounced my ideas off others who have thought long and hard, about the nature of right and wrong, and have come to a conclusion that works for me and makes sense. There are some correlations with your book, but many points of disagreement. The Bible's requirement of "perfection" is much too stringent to be a workable theory of morality.

They didn't get a few things right they got scores of things right pertaining to human nature and our battle with doing what is right. In fact the morality retained in the Ten Commandments is so pure and piercing in its current form that it is yet to be improved on and though they were penned down thousands of years ago almost every modern human fails to keep at least one or two of the commandments if not all. You should expect this about absolute laws. God's law is uncompromising it will not bend to make room for human imperfection. And I'm afraid unless you're perfect you will not enter into heaven. God has offered us a way to be perfect as I have pointed out in my previous post consult it to see what this offer is and how you can receive it. About your girlfriend and the whole marriage thing, Christians may have varying views on that, but personally I have done something to that affect in the past myself and I probably will do it again in the future if I have to. God knows the hearts of men God is not an unrealistic or unreasonable tyrant I think if your motives for withholding the truth briefly are pure and not malicious in nature, then you may proceed to do just that because God will not reprimand you for such a trivial thing as wanting to pleasantly surprise a special person.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

As I understand it, sin did not exist until after they disobeyed god, therefore no other sin could have been commited, since "sin" did not exist as a concept. The 10 Commandments seem a bit out of place in connection to Adam and Eve, would you not agree?The commandments, again as I understand it, where the laws given to the Israelites and for their decendants, were they not? This makes no sense to apply to Adam and Eve.They would not have understood the meaning of any of this. Unless Eve was an annoying nag, or vice versa, who would they kill? - doesn't apply Unless you mean beastiality, there were no other people around to be adulterous with. - doesn't apply From who? - doesn't apply Who were their neighbors? - doesn't apply They had no neighbors, no neighbor with a house, or an oxen, or a wife, or a servant, or an ass, etc. - this again, doesn't apply to Adam and Eve But they didn't have the concept of right or wrong, therefore the penalty, to Adam, didn't mean it was a good thing or a bad thing. Yes, they disobeyed but the disobedience didn't carry with it a right or wrong label because right and wrong are not concepts that Adam and Eve recognize until after they disobey. In other words, they were not equiped, mentally, to understand the wrongness of their actions. Yes, they understood they disobeyed but no, they had no idea it was wrong to do so. But clearly he did. Not only them but everyone after that is punished for Adam and Eve's actions, as the story goes, to include both you and I. Just in what way? He created a species that was incapable of determining right from wrong and then punishes them for doing wrong. How is that just?God is responsible for His creations short comings, since, by definition, He is the creator. If I design a car and it lacks a specific item, I am responsible for what happens due to this missing item. It was my fault, as the creator, for not including this item. It seems like God wants to pass the buck here and let us take the blame for something He lacked including in His creation.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

So the latest and greatest version is the latest and greatest? Do you actually think these things before you write them, and if so does it hurt? Durrr.... These quotes are RIGHT NEXT to each other! If you are going to make stuff up at least don't contradict yourself in the same paragraph!

So in other words, his laws aren't absolute? He'll take into consideration mitigating circumstances? Perfection isn't what is required? That's very good to know. :-) You're right. In fact, most of them are so piercing, they were codified in almost every society before and after the 10 commandments were written. As for some of them (keeping the Sabbath holy, no graven images, and no gods above God) I don't find them necessary, and in fact, I see them broken by just about every self-professing Christian, especially evangelicals. The uproar over showing the 10 commandments at court houses would seem to counter the "No graven images" commandment. The Sabbath is Day 7, as far as I know, and that day would be Saturday, which is why the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday.As for the third one I mentioned, this one athiests do better than anyone, they keep no gods above God, they're all at exactly the same level...nowhere.

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After God had finished his creation he stood back momentarily and beheld what his might had accomplished and what he saw made him declare verbally or not that it was very good. God is perfect and when he describes something as being very good, he is describing something that is perfect.

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No God said very good. Unless you really don't think God means what he says. There's a different word for perfect. Don't change the wording of the text. Very good is just that. Very good.

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Men had no sin; he was perfect a sinless man. So what is perfection? It merely means a sinless state.

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You're making things up again. By sinless I assume you mean never ever making a mistake. God did not demand that humans be sinless. The verse from Matthew is Jesus talking and it isn't a command to never make a mistake it is encouragement to try and be better go the extra mile. Read what he was teaching before that statement.Psalms is a song. Songs are the words of people. Of course they are going to say that God is perfect.

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Therefore we must desist from trying to work our way into heaven let God usher us through the pearly gates. Let Him change you from within and you will also start changing on the outside. Let Him to the work, all you have to do is to accept the free gift of salvation that will attain you the perfection that you need in order to face God in heaven some day.

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This is another case where all we have to do is look at one congregation and know that accepting Christ does not stop a person from making mistakes. Jesus did not make anyone "perfect". The discussion is about sin, not salvation.You're giving a sales pitch and althought he verses are from the Bible the concepts aren't truly Biblical. You need a new religious teacher also. No wonder you sound miserable.

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You should expect this about absolute laws. God's law is uncompromising it will not bend to make room for human imperfection. And I'm afraid unless you're perfect you will not enter into heaven. God has offered us a way to be perfect as I have pointed out in my previous post consult it to see what this offer is and how you can receive it.

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Yes it's called repentance. God's law does not have a life of its own. God is not uncompromising. That is why he accepts repentance and then all sins are forgotten. Very simple.I haven't quite figured out why Christianity needs to make it harder. Why the need to make people feel they need to meet some human standard of perfection, when God doesn't even require it?The only reason I see is to sell the product. Create a need and then fill it. Most of what you've written isn't really saying anything useful for our day to day lives.What you've said is that we are all sinful, no way around it and no forgiveness for it unless we "believe on Christ". (I tend to believe in things, not on things.) If we do that then we have the gift of "salvation" when presumably takes away the penalty of sin (after we die of course). But we are still not supposed to sin during our physical life, because then it supposedly means that we didn't really believe and some teach the gift is taken back. Like I've said before, some of the problem with Christianity is that there isn't a clear unobstructed path to what is truly expected of the believer.Nonbelievers have no problem. The laws of the land prevail and whatever individual ethics and morals they have gleaned from the world around them. The nonbeliever is not restricted to just one influence. The nonbeliever can get inspiration of anywhere. Oddly enough Christianity has been influenced greatly by pagan religions, just as the Hebrews were. Even religion changes to fit the current needs of the members.The only absolute quarantee in life is that you will physically die. Everything else, you have to go with the flow otherwise you'll get a headache.God did not create unattainable goals for mankind. Even the later writing of 1 John 5:3 says that we show our love for God by obeying his commandments, and they are not hard to follow.But they are hard to follow if you don't know what they truly are and Christianity seems to prefer confusion in its members. You're a perfect example of confusion. You're carrying unnecessary excess baggage trying to reach an unattainable goal not placed there by God.

O for the love of God dear purpledawn, where do you come by with this sort of nonsense? I mean really, but you know what for every statement you make you need to attach some proofs to it, I don’t think that here is the proper place to summarize these proofs, but perhaps you could give me some links where I can read about the high-sounding claims and accusations you have been making about Christianity and the bible since the beginning of this thread.But in all honesty it’s not my fault if you misread the bible; I have been trying to present you with the correct gospel, but you simply will not budge, you are simply adamant that your interpretation is correct, and that what pastors, theologians, ministers and bishops have been teaching for centuries is wrong. That is a high-flown claim. Do you even have an original copy of the bible? If you don't mind me asking; or perhaps you’re stuck with a mistranslation of it?the fact is your theology is around the bend, I don't intend to sound contemptuous, honestly, but don’t you agree that you should first of all attend a seminary before you start making high-flown claims about what Christians believe and what Christianity is all about.However I have to conclude that the theology that you’ve been presenting isn't biblical not even slightly. Therefore I will not take any part of it seriously and until you go and read about what we actually believe in, what Christianity is all about and what the bible actually teaches I will not deal with your claims about us any longer. But I will double-dog dare you to take some of your claims that you've been making on this thread and present them on the CARM forums, I will even give you the link here it is http://www.carm.org/.The truth is I just want you to know the truth, because the truth will set you free. Good luck as you pursue it on the CARM forums you'll need it.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

God did not punish Adam and his woman for sins they did not know about or did not commit, the couple was punished for exactly something they had been warned against but did anyway, they weren't idiots, they could tell between what they were suppose to do and what they weren't suppose to do? Although they had the innocence of a young child they didn't have the reasoning ability of a young child, for goodness sake Adam was a genius he named all the animals, God knows what else he was capable of as far as intelligence goes.Now if God tells an intelligent person, on the day you do this you're surely going to die, that intelligent person has got sufficient reasoning ability to figure out for him/herself that he/she should avoid doing that thing because he/she could die from doing it.Its almost like telling someone smart, hey those are super poisonous if you know what's good for you'll avoid eating them, in fact don't even touch them cause that's how deadly they are. Will you Onifre go ahead despite that serious warning and eat that super poisonous thing because you were told by a talking snake that you won't die if you do.

The scriptures testify to themselves...
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John 8:44: "[Jesus said:] The Devil ... is a liar and the father of the lie." Jesus was comfortable enough to teach that the Devil was the source of the first lie, spoken in Eden. He used the serpent as a visible mouthpiece. The Genesis account is not using fictional creatures to teach a lesson and nor was Jesus.
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1Cor. 15:45,47: "It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven." why would anyone compare Jesus, an historical figure, with a allegorical one when making such an important statement.
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Jude 14: "The seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, prophesied." Enoch was not the seventh in line from all early mankind. He was a decendant of the first man Adam, someone who was clearly believed to be a real person.______________________________________
Luke 3:23-38: "Jesus himself, when he commenced his work, was about thirty years old, being the ... son of David ... son of Abraham ... son of Adam." David and Abraham are well-known historical persons. Why would the genealogies of the Jews contain an allegorical figure along with historical persons? I doubt they would do that unless the person was real.There are many more scriptures that show that Jesus viewed the genesis account as factual. He used the genesis account of Adam & Eves marriage to show what Gods standard for marriages was, that is Monogamy, so i doubt very much that anyone can claim the account is not factual. the OT shows that the Jews had a very clear understanding of what sin was, they were categorized into intentional and unintentional sins.Leviticus 4 describes how and why the Sin Offerings were to be made.
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Lev 4:2-35 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘In case a soul sins by mistake...3 If the priest, the anointed one, sins so as to bring guiltiness upon the people, then he must present for his sin that he has committed a sound young bull...13Now if the entire assembly of Israel makes a mistake...then the congregation must present a young bull for a sin offering and must bring it before the tent of meeting...22When a chieftain sins...27And if any soul of the people of the land sins ...35 ,and the priest must make an atonement for him for his sin that he has committed, and so it must be forgiven him"
________________________________________________________________I cant imagine how anyone could draw such a conclusion??? What is your reasoning on this? except that snakes dont talk. lol. And Christian teachings show that the serpent was in fact the devil who was a rebellious angel.
____________________________1Cor11:33"But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ"The serpent who tricked eve by its cunning was identified in
Revelation 20:20"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he seized the dragon, the ORIGINAL SERPENT, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."___________________________
John 8:42"Jesus said to them...44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began...he is a liar and the father of [the lie]."Jesus spoke of the devil as a real individual who lied and deceived and he was telling this to real people whom he claimed were carrying out the desires of the devil. Do you really think he is attributing their evil intentions to kill him, to a non existent being???The scriptures also show that Christs disciples believed that Satan was a real individual with real intentions._____________________
"Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone]. 9But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world"In this scripture christians were warned about the Devils intentions. An allegorical figure cannot have intentions ever, yet here the Devil is being spoken of as seeking out people to devour.
_____________________I used to work with someone who did not believe in the devil, he was a Christadelphian. Are you Christadelphian? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

do you not think that Gods law is a standard of perfection?

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O for the love of God dear purpledawn, where do you come by with this sort of nonsense? I mean really, but you know what for every statement you make you need to attach some proofs to it, I don’t think that here is the proper place to summarize these proofs, but perhaps you could give me some links where I can read about the high-sounding claims and accusations you have been making about Christianity and the bible since the beginning of this thread.

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It's pretty much the nonsense that you've been preaching in this thread, but not unlike some Christian thoughts.The sales pitch below doesn't really tell us what we are being saved from. Like you, they want the individual to feel hopeless. Sales: Create a need and then fill it. The link provides more detail for each point. Notice that the facts of need are based on Paul's teaching, not that of Jesus as I've mentioned before. As you can see it is very easy for me to show proof of what some in Christianity claim.

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But in all honesty it’s not my fault if you misread the bible; I have been trying to present you with the correct gospel, but you simply will not budge, you are simply adamant that your interpretation is correct, and that what pastors, theologians, ministers and bishops have been teaching for centuries is wrong. That is a high-flown claim. Do you even have an original copy of the bible? If you don't mind me asking; or perhaps you’re stuck with a mistranslation of it?

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You haven't shown me that I've misread the Bible, you've told me that I don't understand doctrine. Those aren't the same thing. The reason we have Judaism is because Abraham didn't agree with the doctrines of their current religion.
The reason we have Catholics is because they didn't agree with the doctrines of the Jewish religion.
The reason we have Protestants is because they didn't agree with the doctrines of the Catholic religion.
The reason we have Mormons is because they didn't agree with the doctrines of the Protestant religion.
Etc, etc.

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the fact is your theology is around the bend, I don't intend to sound contemptuous, honestly, but don’t you agree that you should first of all attend a seminary before you start making high-flown claims about what Christians believe and what Christianity is all about.

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I've got over 40 years of Christianity under my belt and thousands of hours of Bible study, so I'm not flying blind.

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However I have to conclude that the theology that you’ve been presenting isn't biblical not even slightly. Therefore I will not take any part of it seriously and until you go and read about what we actually believe in, what Christianity is all about and what the bible actually teaches I will not deal with your claims about us any longer. But I will double-dog dare you to take some of your claims that you've been making on this thread and present them on the CARM forums, I will even give you the link here it is http://www.carm.org/.

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The truth is I just want you to know the truth, because the truth will set you free. Good luck as you pursue it on the CARM forums you'll need it.

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I've shown you Biblical support for what I've said and I've even quoted the Bible correctly unlike yourself. You failed to show me that I'm wrong. You've told me and provided misquoted verses, but you never really addressed my comments. You just say I don't understand.As for the Apologetics page, why? They are defending dogma, not what the Bible actually says. I've read plenty of apologetics. That would be a wasted effort. Apologetics is like a defense attorney who has to defend his client even if they know he is guilty. It is their job to defend the religion.I'm more interested in what lessons the Bible has to offer, not dogma.Remember, you're the one who is struggling under the weight of the dogma, not me. I know what is expected of me and yes, the truth does set you free.Edited by purpledawn, : New TitleEdited by purpledawn, : Added signature

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz