Are we prisoners of sin

Hmmmm. Cedre, what's that all about? "Oh, you better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
And I'm tellin' you why..."Wow! Just Wow, Cedre. That's pitiful.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

As a follower of no religion, why should I take your word for it that Christianity is any more valid than Islam etc? They look like pretty similar enterprises to me.Please provide evidence and reasoned argument. Please note: you may not assume the existence of any deity nor its properties. Those, too need to be substantiated. Please note also: biblical texts do not count as evidence unless evidence can be given that supports biblical authority.As for an example, the current campaign of the catholic church to promote overpopulation and the spread of AIDS looks pretty bloody to me.

Well I see you got your second wind, but apparently haven't learned anything.

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God has all power on earth, in hell and in heaven, he is all powerful to be sure and you had better not cross him.

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So many say the words but they haven't really thought about what they mean.What does almighty really mean. You're going to love this since you have an obsession with the word absolute. But to have absolute power God cannot have any restrictions, exception, or other restraints. Christians put restraints on God's power. You stated that God cannot lie and that God’s own personality keeps a tight rein on what he can and can’t do.God has lied. Adam and Eve story. (They didn't die,he kicked them out of the Garden instead, which he didn't say he was going to do.) God has changed his mind. (Sodom) In several stories he has been talked out of an action by a mere man. The biggy being that the Covenant with the Hebrews is forever, but Paul (who you feel speaks for God) says nope, it is ended.Revelation is a dream or vision. Not a literal happening. Adjust accordingly.

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Predictably many people will find such an idea as scary that an individual could single-handedly wield such enormous unlimited power; however is this fear justified? I would safely say no, for the reason that the bible, God’s own word, describes him (God) as a good and loving God. But even better it also describes him as constant steady personality that will never change with time as do humans.

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There have been many leaders with unlimited power. They could do what they wanted and many suffered from such leaderships.God himself states that he is a jealous God. Sorta blows the whole love thing you had going and the love your enemies. So God doesn't love his enemies. God very clearly told the children of Israel in Exodus 34:15 Hey Peg, now we know what God's name is.Job is a work of fiction and the Psalms are songs.People are going to describe their God as powerful.What you didn't understand in Jesus' teaching concerning love your enemy is that he was talking about individual behavior, not national or government behavior. The OT had a lot of national behavior. God was speaking as head of the Hebrew government, but Jesus was teaching the individual how to lead a better life for the kingdome to come.When you just read the snippets you miss the real story. Try reading the book at face value, just like you read any other book. You might find some interesting lessons.Plus I have good news for you! Since Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law, they were never subject to the penalties. Such a deal!

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Well that is not a real contradiction if looked at closely. What we see in this verse and other similar verses that seem to imply that God is volatile is God’s mercy and forgiving power in action which is consistent with his character namely his character of mercy. In fact what you have done here is again elevate one of God’s attributes above his other characters, namely his justice; the wages of sin is death.If God had always carried his law, in every instance, no matter what, the whole of humanity would have been wiped out already, but his mercy said no and provided a way out. Let us examine this verse in context, Israel had sinned, God pronounced judgment but Moses interceded for his people and God hearkened to the earnest prayer of Moses , God knows hearts, he knew Moses’ heart and was moved by the sincerity and purity of he found in Moses’ heart, and seeing that he is a forgiving God he forgave Moses. The English word intercession is derived from Latin intercedo, to come between, to literally double up as a bridge between God and man, like Christ has done, he is called our mediator. Even the Holy Spirit intercedes

Rom 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

Indeed intercession is not an uncommon thing in the bible people have been interceding since the beginning of time, look at this verse for example: 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;As you can see in this verse it is completely biblical to intercede for even sinners that God may pity them and spare them his wrath for a while longer.In addition Moses was a righteous man and see here what the bible says about the prayers of righteous man. Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.

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Here again it says that we should pray for one another. But the point I would like to drive home is that the prayer of a right man with God will bring about much even God’s mercy and forgiveness. God did not change his mind in the strict sense of changing one’s mind, he simply followed a long standing tradition that he will have mercy and forgive you your sins if you plead him.

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Lastly consider this portion of scripture:

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Eze 33:13 When I say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his righteousness, and commit iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in his iniquity that he hath committed, therein shall he die.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give again that which he had taken by robbery, walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

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God doesn’t change his mind per se he has simply forgiven which is in line with his character if he didn't forgive God would become a liar, because he says if you confess your sins I will forgive you, thus if he just always carried out his law, this would turn him into a liar.

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Finally the Scriptures that describe God apparently changing His mind are human attempts to explain the actions of God. God was going to do something, but instead did something else. To us, that sounds like a change. But to God, who is omniscient and sovereign, it is not a change. Because God knows everything he cannot be surprised by what we do, and then suddenly adjust a few things in an attempt to fix this unforeseen mess, he knew that that is what was going to happen in advance before it happened so God isn't changing his mind at all. Furthermore God always knew what He was going to do. God also knew what He needed to do to cause humanity to do what He wanted them to do. God threatened Nineveh with destruction, knowing that it would cause Nineveh to repent. God threatened Israel with destruction, knowing that Moses would intercede. God does not regret His decisions, but is saddened by some of what humanity does in response to His decisions. God does not change His mind, but rather acts consistently to His Word in response to our actions.

If I misread or misrepresented your argument it would be a straw man fallacy, not begging the question. The former is a distortion of the actual position, the latter is related to circular reasoning. I don’t think I have done either. Furthermore the conclusion that I came to was that your thinking was flawed, which I backed up by telling you exactly where you were flawed. It is perfectly reasonable to observe a flawed argument and come to a completely different conclusion; while not necessarily required it is not an unexpected result. Who wrote the Bible? Men, of course, but the key is that it was divinely inspired. That means that while humans may have actually penned it the claim is that God himself composed the content. This means that when you quote the Bible for descriptions of God you are in effect quoting God describing himself. Furthermore the source of the claims is tainted; of course the Bible will claim God is just and good, after all the Bible derives its moral compass from the God it describes.To put it more succinctly: Someone who views God’s will as being the definition of good will necessarily describe God as being good. Using that position as justification for itself is flawed reasoning though, specifically circular reasoning or begging the question. Who can stand in his way — Does might make right? My views on morality say no, and evidently he didn’t make us in such a way as to prevent us from standing in his way. In fact your position states that everyone is somewhat off from the godly ideal, meaning that everyone stands in his way to some extent. See anyone get smote by God recently? The key is the distinction between God himself and the claimed universal moral code. So far as I understood your position you did not claim that there was a universal moral code which God perfectly adhered to, rather you imbued God himself with the ability to dictate universal moral code directly.Why is this relevant? The problem is that if God is not the source of the universal moral code (UMC) then we need some evidence to back up the assertion that God perfectly adheres to said UMC. Without such evidence we cannot assume that God’s actions are moral when a human’s moral sense is ambiguous, and even less so when it is in conflict with our moral leanings. If instead you are suggesting that God is the source of UMC directly then you *must* provide some evidence other than his adherence to his own moral code.

Clearly you fail to understand the nature of God with this statement. God is not a contradiction. When the bible says God is all powerful there are certain limits to his power and one of those limits is, God cannot become evil. Why because God cannot lie and in the bible he is said not to be able to change Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.He cannot change, and seeing that he is a good and loving God, the thought of becoming evil or turning bad doesn't even cross his mind.Another thing he can't do is create a rock so large that he won't be able to carry it, or make himself not to exist anymore these are things he cannot do.

I find it interesting that it is better for God to make people conform to his will under threat of death, torture, etc. rather than have him change his mind. Can we then assume that such actions by humans are just, that is I can threaten people with death if they do not conform to my will? Or can I only do that to non-Christians? If not in either case, what gives God such special privileges? I guess I just skipped over this the first time I read it, but here is yet another logical fallacy. This is an appeal to consequences of a belief or a type of wishful thinking. Your argument as stated says that God must forgive people because if he did not he would be going against his word, and become a liar. You statement is constructed in such a way as to imply that the consequence of God being a liar, something which you personally disapprove of, acts somehow as evidence against the concept. Your argument there is not logically valid.Edited by Phage0070, : Rehashing

Again, you might try actually reading it. A brief perusal of Genesis 1 and 2 should suffice. The two creation myths are contradictory, a result of their redaction from separate sources.Of course, you will deny this and in the process, ignore over a century of biblical scholarship, but this is not really the topic of this thread. If you insist upon pursuing it, you might like to start by providing evidence for your own claim that the Bible is unadulterated.

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God carrying out justice upon sinful nations may seem like a bloodbath to you and unjust, but it really isn’t.

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I do not need to prove that any Old Testament massacre was unjust. Your claim, if I must remind you, was that biblical teaching has never related in a bloodbath, indeed that it could never result in a bloodbath.This is proved false by the Bible itself. There are many massacres mentioned in the text and they were often directly commanded by God. Whether you consider them just or unjust is beside the point.Christian teachings have caused bloodbaths. Or are you going to claim that the crusades were not influenced by Christianity?

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Now God is angered by sin, and eventually he will put a stop to it, all of it in due time. But also know that the wage of sin is death. This is a law, no one escapes it. And that is exactly what these sinful nations had secured for themselves by their sinning.

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How charming. God commands his followers to murder all of those evil sinful children. Nice. Very morally uplifting.Exactly what sins can children have committed? Only a depraved monster could conceive of executing children. No civilised country executes children. Your evil god cannot even match the morality of his supposed creations. I find that rather pathetic, although not as pathetic as I find your apologies for such crimes.

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Now about the bloody history of Christianity which really is a molehill compared to the atrocities that people committed under such banners as social Darwinism, Nazism etc and the world wars.

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So your defence of Christianity is that it is not as bad as Nazism? That is not an especially high standard to aspire to.

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Regarding this bloody history of Christianity, we cannot really hold the bible or Christ accountable for what these Christian renegades committed in the name of Christianity, because their acts are in direct opposition to the clear message of loving your enemies taught by the bible.

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1) Their actions did indeed contradict the message of love in the Bible. They did not however, contradict the equally clear message to kill infidels; This is not what I would call clarity. Love your enemy. Kill your enemy. If this is clarity, I would hate to think how God's word would read if it were muddled.2) If the misdeeds of Christianity cannot be blamed on Christianity, then by the same token, the good deeds of Christians cannot be attributed too Christianity.You cannot have it both ways.

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It is not right to blame Christianity for some of the actions committed by its followers because it doesn’t teach or instruct or even encourage these actions .

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Go read a damn Bible Cedre.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

How can you type that without your head exploding?

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

Hi Coragyps,That statement is bad enough, but to place after the sentence "God is not a contradiction." is simply hilarious. Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

It is really hard to hold back snide comments about the possible orifices for pressure release.

Please address the scripture provided in Message 288 and explain why you don't feel it supports my statements instead of just making more fictional claims.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Wow, do you just come up with an answer to a specific argument without even thinking about whether your new claim contradicts one you made just a couple minutes before?If, as you claim, god has absolute power, and absolute means without restriction, but that god has restrictions, do you not see that is a contradiction?Since you like quoting definitions: Or even more useful here: Emphasis mine.
All of these can be found on dictionary.com

Please bear this assertion in mind when reading the very next sentance in Cedre's post! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh the irony.........

All powerful just ain't what it used to be.