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Author Topic:   The Barbarity of Christianity (as compared to Islam)
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 954 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 211 of 299 (341793)
08-20-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
08-20-2006 6:29 PM


Re: TOPIC
I don't think you'll find that the Bible condones burning people who are suspected of being witches.

Fair enough, but it does condone the killing of witches (specifically by stoning) and the vast majority of people killed were not actually witches (a tiny few worshipped pagan gods or practiced some sort of divination and could be defined as a witch by that, I suppose), so they were executed on suspicion and false evidence.

And if truly a witch then I do not see the problem: it's not like they are an elite group for whom 'burning' will be the outcome.

I don't quite understand the second half of your statement, but the first half is frightening. You then would be in line with your stone in hand? Truly barbarous and , therefore, evidence for the thread topic.

Define 'innocent'

Innocent as in being a midwife, not a witch. Being a folk healer and not a witch. Being a woman who lived alone and not a wich. Being an eccentric old cat lady and not a witch. Being a person who was accused by someone under extreme torture to save their own hide and not a witch. Being a person whose neighbor bore a grudge against them for something or another and not a witch. Being a person who confessed under torture or because they were insane and not a witch. Being a person who floated when thrown into the water and not a witch (or alternatively sank afer a time and drowned before they could be otherwise executed). Being a person despised by the community or a loner or otherwise strange or on the fringes and not a witch.

Edited by Jaderis, : added the bit about gods and divination


This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3882 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 212 of 299 (341808)
08-20-2006 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
08-20-2006 6:48 PM


Re: TOPIC
So, what's the difference between "suspecting" that somebody's a witch and "knowing" that somebody's a witch?

Whether you have checked if they weigh the same as a duck.

It's a simple matter of logic :)


Oops! Wrong Planet
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 3610 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 213 of 299 (343867)
08-27-2006 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Jaderis
08-20-2006 5:51 PM


Re: TOPIC
After 911, all the 19 suicide bombers had a check list. 13th item was to read the Koran.(Denver Post and Rocky mountain news both carried the 13 check lists immediately after 911. Christian soldiers reading the bible during war is different from Islamofascist terrorists. Islamoterrorists are indiscriminate in killing innocent civilians. Christian Soldiers only fight other armed forces. They do not kill innocent civilians.
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 214 of 299 (384006)
02-09-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
02-10-2006 12:59 PM


Re: setting the record straight
Hey Jar, http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ has a partial list down at the bottom of Islamic attacks in the last 3 months. There's also a spot that says Islamic terrorists kill more people each year than the entire 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

Open your eyes. This isn't even a debate.


News Media: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 1 negative report at a time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 12:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 02-09-2007 7:04 PM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 215 of 299 (384007)
02-09-2007 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by inkorrekt
08-27-2006 2:40 AM


Re: TOPIC
They do not kill innocent civilians.

Allow me to correct you. We do not target civilians. But in our operations, innocent civilians do die. Its an ugly fact of war.


News Media: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 1 negative report at a time.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 216 of 299 (384013)
02-09-2007 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tal
02-09-2007 6:51 PM


Re: setting the record straight
LOL

There's also a spot that says Islamic terrorists kill more people each year than the entire 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

Pretty much typical bullshit. Just how I may ask does anyone know how many folk were killed during the Spanish Inquisition?

But while right now many terrorists are Islamic, Christianity acted in barbaric ways for about 2000 years. Look at the many, many times the Jews have been driven out of countries, look at the total irradication of whole cultures and peoples.

Open your eyes. This isn't even a debate.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Tal, posted 02-10-2007 1:35 PM jar has responded
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 217 of 299 (384022)
02-09-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Tal
02-09-2007 6:53 PM


We're just better, dammit!
quote:
We do not target civilians. But in our operations, innocent civilians do die.

And that makes your operations better...how?


This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Tal, posted 02-09-2007 6:53 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Tal, posted 02-10-2007 1:17 PM Chiroptera has responded

Tal
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 218 of 299 (384186)
02-10-2007 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Chiroptera
02-09-2007 7:36 PM


Re: We're just better, dammit!
I'm not sure what you mean by "better." Please elaborate.


News Media: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 1 negative report at a time.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 219 of 299 (384189)
02-10-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by jar
02-09-2007 7:04 PM


Re: setting the record straight
look at the total irradication of whole cultures and peoples.

In case you missed it, this is the Islamists stated intent towards you.

I may ask does anyone know how many folk were killed during the Spanish Inquisition?

http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

But not so with the Spanish Inquisition. In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake....
Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chairman of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including most recently A Concise History of the Crusades (Rowman & Littlefield, 1999) and Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2003).

On high weeks, more than 1,000 innocent people per week are killed worldwide by Islamic violence.

Don't get me wrong Jar, I'm not saying Christianity didn't commit barbaric acts in its history, I'm just saying there's no comparison when you compare raw numbers. Also keep in mind Islam was started and spread via military conquest, which would seem to logically lend it to be more barbaric than Christianity.

Not to mention yesterday we found a body in the slice of Baghdad I'm operating in. It was a Sunni killed by a Shia death squad. His face was ripped off.

Edited by Tal, : No reason given.

Edited by Tal, : No reason given.


News Media: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 1 negative report at a time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 02-09-2007 7:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 220 of 299 (384191)
02-10-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Tal
02-10-2007 1:35 PM


Re: setting the record straight
Not to mention yesterday we found a body in the slice of Baghdad I'm operating in. It was a Sunni killed by a Shia death squad. His face was ripped off.

Which is not Islamic violence unless you want to include all those Iraqi's killed by US Soldiers as being Christian violence. That is an internal power struggle (and one that was a foregone conclusion long before the invasion).

There was absolutely no doubt that the result of invading Iraq would be a civil war involving Kurd, Shia and Sunni populations. There seems to be two possibilities. One is that the Administration was so stupid that it did not realize that that was a recognized problem stretching back at least 100 years. The second is that the Administration knew that such a civil war was the most likely result and thought it to be an acceptable outcome. The only other possibility is that it was the desired outcome.

If the former is true then the Administration was grossly negligent.

If the later is true the all of the Iraqi deaths, many hundreds of thousands, can be laid at the feet of Christian George Bush.

The US invaded Iraq, Tal, just in case you hadn't noticed. Most of the violence and death there has been caused by the US.

And if we want to get into tossing around examples, I can point to a few cases where US soldiers targeted civilians and killed (even raped) them.

The key point Tal is that very little violence is really religion based. The current Islamic violence world wide is not so much religion based as (as it almost always is) power and political.

Islam is not a threat.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Tal, posted 02-10-2007 1:35 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Tal, posted 02-10-2007 2:12 PM jar has responded
 Message 224 by gene90, posted 02-10-2007 2:23 PM jar has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1351 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 221 of 299 (384194)
02-10-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
02-10-2006 2:54 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
quote:
Is burning someone at the stake Christ-like?

Did these Christians burn people at the stake because Jesus told them to, or did they burn people at the stake because they were uncivilized, barbarous people whose religious beliefs happened to be Christianity? And were these groups more or less civilized than their pagan predecessors, who also had their own ugly habits?

Did the English ban Jews from their midst because Christianity made them into racists, or because they were racists who happened to be Christians?

Do modern-day Muslim nations greatly limit personal freedom because Islam tells them to, or do they do this because they don't have the Western values of individual liberty that were begun by the (pagan) Greeks and rediscovered by later Christian countries? Are modern-day Christian nations more advanced than Muslim nations in this regard because Christianity made them so, or again, was it our Western tradition?

To look at cultures and assign whatever good or evil they do to their religious tradition is a bit simplistic. It ignores the fact that people have in themselves an amazing capacity to do evil things, and then justify such behavior on whatever belief system they happen to adhere to. This is true whether it is Cortez abusing the natives (rationalizing it as spreading Christianity, but really searching for gold) or Islamic armies conquering and occupying Spain.


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 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 2:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 222 of 299 (384198)
02-10-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
02-10-2007 1:53 PM


Re: setting the record straight
Which is not Islamic violence

Yes, it is Islamic violence. It was a Shia deathsquad targetting a Sunni.

That is an internal power struggle

Internally between Sunni and Shia.

The key point Tal is that very little violence is really religion based

No, it is religion based violence.

The rest of your post is ignorant political nattering.


News Media: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 1 negative report at a time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 1:53 PM jar has responded

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 223 of 299 (384199)
02-10-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Tal
02-10-2007 2:12 PM


Re: setting the record straight
tal writes:

No, it is religion based violence.

I would have to agree here. A huge number of murders in Iraq are Sewerside bombings that are motivated from religious indoctrination.


This message is a reply to:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 1351 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 224 of 299 (384200)
02-10-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
02-10-2007 1:53 PM


Re: setting the record straight
quote:
Islam is not a threat.

"Islam" is not a threat, it is a belief system.

The adherents of Islam may or may not be a threat, depending on how Westernized they are and whether they respect the religious liberty of others. Some are, some aren't.

This is true of any belief system. A group of adherents to Christianity would certainly be a threat if they want to kill you or force you to convert to their belief system. To a Muslim or Jew in Jerusalem during the Crusades, Christians would most definately be a threat. By the way, so would Muslims to a Christian community in Romania during the same time period, and for the same reasons.

By the way, there are Muslims who would like to kill Westerners and/or force us to convert, so yeah, those guys are a threat.

Edited by gene90, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 02-10-2007 1:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 225 of 299 (384201)
02-10-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by gene90
02-10-2007 2:02 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
The general answer to your question is "Yes and No."

Racism and barbarism may well be simply human characteristics (along with there opposites as well).

But in the case of burning folk at the stake to save their souls or because the people were thought to be witches, the proximate cause was Christianity.

The continued expulsion of Jews throughout Europe had as its proximate cause Christianity. The fact that we are speaking of Jewish Expulsion (and we should also be including other pogroms such as special taxation and ghettos) makes those events religiously driven. The people may also have been xenophobic in general and there were other groups who were also targeted (Romany being one example) but the "Jewish Question" was based on Christian dogma.

Do modern-day Muslim nations greatly limit personal freedom because Islam tells them to, or do they do this because they don't have the Western values of individual liberty that were begun by the (pagan) Greeks and rediscovered by later Christian countries?

Complicated. Since the treatment and acceptance of individual freedoms varies greatly among Islamic Nations that is very hard to answer. Indonesia is far different than Saudi Arabia.

Are modern-day Christian nations more advanced than Muslim nations in this regard because Christianity made them so, or again, was it our Western tradition?

That too makes some assumptions I believe unwarranted. For example, the idea of a modern day Christian Nation. I am not at all sure that other than the Vatican, there is a Modern Day Christian Nation.

To look at cultures and assign whatever good or evil they do to their religious tradition is a bit simplistic. It ignores the fact that people have in themselves an amazing capacity to do evil things, and then justify such behavior on whatever belief system they happen to adhere to. This is true whether it is Cortez abusing the natives (rationalizing it as spreading Christianity, but really searching for gold) or Islamic armies conquering and occupying Spain.

But I agree with most of that. When looking at events, religion is most often simply used as one tool to persuade the general public to follow some course of action. The Crusades were not religious in nature, they were political.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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