Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?

more taking out of context more misrepresentation, this is why a christian cannot have a discussion with secularists--they are NOT honest.

now yoou have qualified soemthing that was not being talked about. you just changed your argument, for i was not limiting it to just those who show neglect. the parents did not show neglect. your qualification just shows how much you will slant the table to get your way.won't work. as nix said it is either all or nothing. so stop changing the argument to suit your purposes.

let me end my part withthis: i am not giving all my side of it because it would be too easy to twist what i say. i am merely defending the parents ight to use faith instead of medicine. i have also stated that this is a christian matter for there are things involved which you do not understand nor believe in thus you cannot do justice.this was not murder, neglect, irresponsibility, it may have been a poor decision-- i do not know as i do not know the people involved. BUT because people have the right to practice their faith, they cannot be criminalized for doing so when the results are less than ideal or children are involved. that is just wrong to do so in light of the fact that children die at the hands of competant medical professionals everyday, whether they are quacks or not.it is best to leave this issue in the hands of those who understand it and know what is going on. ultimately though, since God has given everyone the right of free choice, parents will still make their own decisions and you cannot complain, for you would not want your arguments used against you when you did something inline with your beliefs or lack of them and lose your family while you were in prisoned.it is easy to cry foul and make others pay the price but it is a different matter when you have to pay the cost instead.

i am done with this thread as i have said about all i can say and i have started to repeat myself. keep in mind, these parents were wracked with emotions, and desire to see God miracuously heal their child. they did nothing wrong.people will always make decisions others will not agree with but that doesn't mean we criminalize everybody. itmeans that some people have to mind their own business and raise their families like God wants them to for they are not responsible for the decisions of others, they are responsible for their own.sometimes you just have to take your eyes off other people and see how bad a job you are doing.

it is amazing that you think you can read my mind. you would be wrong of course, it is the athiest that cannot discuss because they only want their opinions rubber stamped anddo not want to consider alternatives to their views.i do not have to because i am on the side of God and he has the truth. yet God did NOT say 'use evidence' now did He? he said to use faith. yet you don't for you side with him.

I have returned to this thread because I was able to come across something that shores up my argument that atheists, secularists, evolutionists are not honest in their discussions with christians.some one stated that faith healing was against the law well that is not so and here are some quotes and a link that demonstrate this fact: the unbolded sentence is simply their opinion and they should not be allowed to force their secular ideas on people of religious faith. {note--i said 'religious' not 'christian'} notice the bolded words this time. faith healing is NOT as bad as most of you made it out to be. your opposition to it is mainly because it is religious and not because of some legitimate argument.federal laws states: they are not doing anything wrong and local prosecutors who take parents to trial do so illegitmately and probably for political reasons.now a few states have repealed or revised their laws BUT now, one side note, this CANNOT be guaranteed. it is only a possibility as i have noted that a friend of mine died from a medical problem that 'could have been prevented by medical care..' in the hospital under the care of doctors.so the doctor in that quote cannot state for a fact that those children who died via faith healing, would have survived under medical care. itis only probable, possible but never certain.http://www.rickross.com/reference/foc/foc29.htmlif you want to read more articles on this topic, and i haven't read most of these, here is a link to a main page:http://www.rickross.com/groups/foc.html

you have NO cause for concern for 1. they are not your children and you do not have perfection in your life to make such judgments and decisions.
2. these studies are worthless as they take a few case studies, whether it be 100 or 1,000, doesn't matter and ignore the MILLIONS of families where things activities DO NOT take place.
3. we all know that studies are falsified, manipulated, altered, for political reasons.
4. these studies are used simply to attack christians or religious people because they are different have have a purpose in life.
5. you all hate Christ so you take that hate out on His followers.
6. these studies ar not objective but conducted by unbelievers who do not know anything about what they are studying.the abuse heaped upon christian families by atheists and other secularists is what needs to be stopped for it is criminal and unjust.

now i am not reading anyone's recent replies as I want to explain something here that i came across in my research on this church in oregon city.here is the problem: now the bolded words are the key. Faith healing is not wrong, the parents are NOT wrong and should not be put on trial. They were legitmately practicing their faith as outlined by their church leaders.what is wrong is THE CHURCH POLICY and yes it is very wrong. So i would say that the church itself, NOT the parents should be put on trial because it si the church leaders tthat are being negligent not the parents.No church can make such a policy for then they would be 1. tempting God; 2. acting like God; 3. limiting God among other spiritual things.God doesn't always use the miraculous to answer prayers, though it is a miracle because of the odds etc. (details can be talked about another time) he does use doctors, he does use normal things like medicine, and no where in the Bible does it say that His followers must avoid doctors or hospitals BUT it does say we are to go to Him first, to rely on him, to look to Him and then give Him the glory when the child or adult is healedfaith healing is not the only way God works and it is not wrong to seek it. it is wrong to leave God out of the loop or picture when pursuing traditional medical treatment.do you understand the difference and what i am saying? link to my information:Inside.com: News and Community For Professionalsfor further research at your leisure:http://search.yahoo.com/..._ylt=AjKd6CGMQ4twhcfronORvjGbvZx4keep in mind i am not counteracting any of my previous statements, as i will defend the parents right to use faith healing BUT i will not defend such an unspiritual policy.

i am saying 'ye who are without sin cast the first stone.' you cannot judge, you cannot condemn, you cannot accuse for your own lives are not what they should be to do such actions.God has already stated what is right or wrong, so you do not need to. it has been done. you should because your actions affect the innocent as well. you really do not investigate things very well do you? cops lie all the time as do social workers, which is why i gave you the example of the wennatchee witchhunt. look it up and see how bad law enforcement gets. if they hold to secular scientific ways then i highly doubt they are. tat is not your call to make, as i am sure you would not want your children taken away from you because you did not do everything a creationist said to do.'do unto others...'you do not have the right to steal people's children.

theproblem here in this discussionis that all you secularists are equating sexual sins with faith healing and they are not the same. you are purposefully distorting the issue because you do not like Christ or christians and you need justification to interfere in their lives and families.the people who are wrong here are you all.

BUT they weren't, I was doing that by reviewing their policy and making the statement. The parents were doing what they felt they had to do, JUST like you all do.the policy is NOT encouraging criminal behavior, do not falsely label. it is telling people that they cannot go to a doctor when they think they should, it is interfering with parental rights and that is not correct.since the parents are a member of that church, and if you know anything about abusive relatinsips, then you would know that itis NOT easy for the parents to leave.stop being hypocritical in your applications. you do not know enough or refuse to make honest assessments of the situation. doesn't fit. being told by someone to do something is not the same as being a long term member and steeped in the teachings of a particular church.please try to find examples that actually fit the situation discussed. tyou example shows why christians do not like discussing with non-believers, you can't stay on point and give proper illustrations because you want to take shortcuts or do not want to have compassion for religious people.the parents could be construed as victims in this case because they were mislead by their leaders. just as you are mislead by democrats or republicans or evolutinary scientists. you will want God to have mercy and compassion on you for following sinful ways yet you refuse to grant those same judicial acts on those you despise.think about it.

some of you were but keep in mind, i am not going to give you an inch so you can take a mile. you also forget that acts like rape, murder, abuse are covered by BOTH spiritual and secular law, faith healing isn't and to call it murder is making people suffer because of someone's subjective opinion not fact or reality.don't have any hate, but i do not like your thinking that the secular world has the righ tot interfere in families especially when they do not know/grasp the issue nor are willing to accept mitigating factors involved.just becaus eyou do not believe in the spiritual world doesn't mean it does not exist and does not interact with terrestrial life.Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

this is you subjective opinion and does not make fiath healing murder and as i have shown most states have exception clauses so it is NOT against the law.if i were you i would convince the oreon authorities to go after the church NOT the parents and then you would get the correct culprits and probably save a few lives. going after the parents ruins a family or three and that is not smart. actually it does IF it was really God telling them to do it. again ignorance of the spiritual realm gives you a very distorted view of the issue and you react wrongly. but they weren't neglecting their child's health. your decision to do only traditional style medicine is not superceding all parental rights and ability to exercise their right of free choice. that decision is for you an dyour family alone---PERIOD. now you are going to the apples when we are talking about oranges. first off God does not tell people to sin, which murder would be. Second, God isn't the only supernatural force in existence and they copy God or angels to get people to destroy others for their hatefilled mission. third, murder is against God's and secular law so having God told me to do it is not a defense because we can look up in the Bible and see that God does not do that.faith healing is not murder and your false labelling is distorting the issue. no you just proved ou do not get it because delusion has little to do with it. to explainit all will take awhile but i will try to be brief: 1. they could be decieved by evil; 2. the could be brainwashed, by evil; 3. they misunderstand scripture; 4. they are victims of those who want power an docntrol over them-- i.e. jim jones do you think that those 800 or so people could have just walked away? hardly.there is so much you do not understand or are willing to accept thus you try to falsely label something so you can do away with it. it isn't going away.some secularists are just as deluded as you claim religious people are.

and you are so holy you can draw that conclusion? the Bible lays out the guidelines for parents and this particular church (its leaders, actually) has gone too far. it has put in man made rules where they do not belong.i do not fault the parents at all but the church leaders of that particular congregation. but again you are gettinginto a very subjective area and no human is great enough to say their way is the only way. i know of a man who called it child abuse because one family did not have computers in their home.humans have differing ideas of what suffering and abuse are and who is going to draw the line? if you lethumans, then that line gets blurred eventually becauseof 'interpretation' or over-ruled when a new leader takes over. It is best to go to the Bible for God's way is not over-ruled nor blurred, it remains the same nop matter how badly some people misinterpret it, and we know the people would be wrong not God when they do go off the deep edge.science cannot make these determinations because they are just human and the previous reasons apply. yes it is always hard to differentiate between the singular usage of the word 'you' and its plural usage. please try to clarify before assuming. [qs]what you are saying is that all cases of child abuse are just made up, everyone involved in such a case is lying abot it. and no one has said that they are. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you[qs] that is NOT what i said nor is the example stating that. please do not distort what i have written. to answer your question, there are a lot and social workers lie, cops lie, and they misreport simply because they do not like someone. if they disagree with the Bible then they probably aren't. you can't have a relationship with God if you call Him a liar.

yet 'condemn' does not mean 'to judge' Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.