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Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: What I mean is that the public reaction to the death, burial, and reported resurrection of Jesus is much greater than most others who have died. Really? Is there any evidence to support that?
Phat writes: Does a reaction count as evidence? It counts as evidence that some people claim to react to the particular assertion; Buddhist to the death of the Buddha, Christians to the death of Jesus; Muslims to the death of Mohammad... But it does not count as evidence of any deity.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence
This is what this yahoo(the writer obviously has some basic problems with logic) has to say about that.
quote:There is no historical evidence for any of this. None. There are the writings included in the bible, nothing else. The writings in the bible are of no value historically to show the historical existence of this character. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
What I mean is that the public reaction to the death, burial, and reported resurrection of Jesus is much greater than most others who have died.
There was no public reaction at the time. None. If there were there would have been some sort of public record.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: Essentially the counter-argument is that absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence. What is that a counter-argument to? All you have done is erect a strawman. No one is saying that deities don't exist. What we are saying is that there is no evidence for any deities, therefore we don't believe that one exists. We are skeptics, not deniers.
The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence. Stories in books have never been evidence.
The bottom line(in my mind) is not the proof itself. It is the necessity for such proof and the openness of the human heart to receive such an idea. That isn't openness. That is gullibility. Openness is the willingness to allow EVIDENCE to change your mind.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: You may have a point. As you can see, it's not just me.
I'll take it into consideration. I doubt that you will. When you get into trouble with an argument, you revert to this kind of random religio-waffle. I was thinking about it in a church today at a funeral. The priest was saying similar stuff. It really made no objective sense, but it had become so normalised that nobody noticed. People get so used to it over the years that they hardly listen to it - it's a rhythm; the ritual is the message, the language is just mood music. But if you actually listen to the words, they carry no actual meaning.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Tangle writes: I was thinking about it in a church today at a funeral. The priest was saying similar stuff. It really made no objective sense, but it had become so normalised that nobody noticed. People get so used to it over the years that they hardly listen to it - it's a rhythm; the ritual is the message, the language is just mood music. But if you actually listen to the words, they carry no actual meaning.
This is EXACTLY what I have noticed over the years. It was part of what led me to leave the church. I suddenly realized that 99% of the time I wasn't even listening to what the pastor was saying, much less care what he was saying. When I did listen and actually try to make sense of it, I realized that it was just word salad. You can find tons of good examples by reading the lyrics of modern Christian praise songs. It's almost as if it's a Scrabble game where the tiles have things like "Grace of God" or "Kingdom of God" on them. Pastors draw 8 of them, put them in a random order, and then base their sermon on that word salad. It's like listening to someone who just strings a bunch of clichs together: "Birds of a feather flock together, but it often goes over like a lead balloon. Instead, opposites attract while time heals all wounds." That's what sermons sound like. I grew up in a devout Christian family, but I harbor them no ill will. I think they have come to the realization that I am no longer a believer (took them 20 years), and they are actually being cool about it. Mom wanted me to go to church on Mom's Day, and I agreed in 1 second because it was a special day and she rarely asks. During the sermon I really had the urge to ask someone in my family if they can explain what was just said. I suspected that they wouldn't be able to. I suspect that no one would be able to. However, since they are being cool with my whole kitten-eating atheism, I didn't push it. Still has me curious if they could explain what was said, but I suspect it will always remain a curiosity. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Charlie Brown: THAT'S IT!!!
the ritual is the message....
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
So now that's sorted who we gonna call?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: For supernatural, call GHOSTBUSTERS. So now that's sorted who we gonna call?
For Humor call either Ringo or Charles Schultz For answers as to why it all sounds like meaningless cliches, try this:
1 Cor 1:19 writes:
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
would you say that the Bible itself sounds like meaningless cliches? In general, that is?
I really had the urge to ask someone in my family if they can explain what was just said. I suspected that they wouldn't be able to. I suspect that no one would be able to. However, since they are being cool with my whole kitten-eating atheism, I didn't push it. Still has me curious if they could explain what was said, but I suspect it will always remain a curiosity. Give me an example of something said that is meaningless and I'll see if I can explain it. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes:
The article covered this:
There is no historical evidence for any of this. None. There are the writings included in the bible, nothing else. The writings in the bible are of no value historically to show the historical existence of this character.The author concludes Or... we might point our metaphorical telescopes the other way, write articles about how ridiculous the idea is, and tell everyone that since there is no evidence, we refuse to believe it. The whole idea is based on faith. There never was meant to be evidence. But if you prefer, you can have faith that Donald Trump will make America great again or that there is no such thing as sin and this world will someday suddenly learn how to get along. I would never squash such hope. Why is it that men such as Richard Carrier attempt to spread misinformation and attempt to squash the faith of Christians?Of course our faith will never be quenched even if they burned every Bible and religious tract on the planet. Christians won't disappear... Teach your children well because some of their friends will always be believers. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: For answers as to why it all sounds like meaningless cliches, try this: Do you really think that meaningless biblical cant, explains meaningless biblical cant?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Tell it to Zeus.
Christians won't disappear...
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: would you say that the Bible itself sounds like meaningless cliches? In general, that is? I would agree that you can find many examples of meaningless phrases in the Bible.
Give me an example of something said that is meaningless and I'll see if I can explain it. Here is an example: "One need not look very far to see examples of discord, hostility and disunity within humanity and even within creation. Culture wars, political wars, theological wars and military wars abound. What, we might ask, is the source of all this hostility? And, more importantly, what is the source of true peace, true unity, true harmony? Paul tells us in Ephesians that Jesus is the one true peace. Jesus IS our peace and the Holy Spirit is the unifier. A new president or policy or military leader or social activist will not bring peace. Only when people accept the one (Jesus) who IS peace, who IS harmony will true unity come. "Page not found - Woodland Hills Church
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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ringo writes: Tell it to Zeus. This reminds me of a book by the late Terry Pratchett titled "Small Gods". The gist of it was that the more followers a god has the more powerful they are. The book starts out with a god trying to manifest itself into world and he ends up as a small turtle because he has only one follower. If he loses that one he poofs out of existence. It's a good read!
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