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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(4)
Message 46 of 283 (760607)
06-23-2015 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
06-23-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Lost In Space
Were this true, you may in fact be predestined not to believe!

And if a believer holds to this belief then that means he believes this god thing of his purposely made non-believers so he could torture them in hell for all eternity. And made a whole hell of a lot of them, like the majority of all humans, so he could throw them in the lake of fire and revel in their torturous screams for all eternity.

Such a nice guy, this god thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 06-23-2015 5:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 47 of 283 (760624)
06-24-2015 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
06-23-2015 7:18 PM


Re: Lost In Space
And if a believer holds to this belief then that means he believes this god thing of his purposely made non-believers so he could torture them in hell for all eternity. And made a whole hell of a lot of them, like the majority of all humans, so he could throw them in the lake of fire and revel in their torturous screams for all eternity.
What alternatives can be envisioned?

1) Leave everyone alone.

2) Save everybody...showing absolutely no partiality--even though God would have a right to such a decision regardless how we humans judged Him.(Not that we speak as one voice to begin with.... )

perhaps instead of a hell, unbelievers...after given a choice and rejecting it....could simply cease to exist. Do you have any better ideas, assuming God is omnipotent?


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2015 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Omnivorous, posted 06-24-2015 1:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2015 1:49 AM Phat has responded
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 06-24-2015 2:07 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2015 10:09 AM Phat has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 48 of 283 (760626)
06-24-2015 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-24-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Lost In Space
Phat writes:

perhaps instead of a hell, unbelievers...after given a choice and rejecting it....could simply cease to exist. Do you have any better ideas, assuming God is omnipotent?

Yes, God could support stronger labor laws, especially concerning vacations: we take scandalously too few vacations in this country.

Sometimes you just need to get away and simply cease to exist.

Otherwise, God could just butt out.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 49 of 283 (760628)
06-24-2015 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-24-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Lost In Space
perhaps instead of a hell, unbelievers...after given a choice and rejecting it....could simply cease to exist. Do you have any better ideas, assuming God is omnipotent?

I am quite partial to the idea that when your kind of god, or any kind of god for that matter, confronts me and is rejected it would simply cease to exist. For millennia now man has been consigning the ancient gods to oblivion in the eternal void using nothing more than a thought. That's why all the remaining gods tremble in fear and scurry off to hide in some dark corner of human ignorance when an atheist shows up. A few dozen more banished gods, especially the megalomaniacal blood mongers like the ones so many christians venerate, would be no loss.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : reword


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-06-2015 7:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 50 of 283 (760629)
06-24-2015 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-24-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Lost In Space
What alternatives can be envisioned?

Dogone it. Didn't Lennon and Ono cover this topic pretty well already? "Imagine".


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13996
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 51 of 283 (760761)
06-25-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
06-23-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Lost In Space
Phat writes:

Without the idea, nothing would exist.


Isn't that a tad circular?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 06-23-2015 5:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-28-2015 9:14 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 52 of 283 (761099)
06-28-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
06-25-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Lost In Space
May the circle be unbroken...

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-28-2015 2:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13996
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 53 of 283 (761120)
06-28-2015 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
06-28-2015 9:14 AM


Re: Lost In Space
Phat writes:

May the circle be unbroken...


That's "Will the circle be unbroken?"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-28-2015 9:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 54 of 283 (761275)
06-30-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-24-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Lost In Space
What alternatives can be envisioned?

1) Leave everyone alone.

That's it, Phat! It's that one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 07-04-2015 9:14 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 55 of 283 (761688)
07-04-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by New Cat's Eye
06-30-2015 10:09 AM


Re: Lost In Space
While I like the idea of eliminating harsh judgement, I would miss the idea of Gods blessing, favor, and/or reward.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2015 10:09 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13996
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 56 of 283 (761697)
07-04-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
07-04-2015 9:14 AM


Re: Lost In Space
Phat writes:

While I like the idea of eliminating harsh judgement, I would miss the idea of Gods blessing, favor, and/or reward.


And you like the idea of your friend forcing himself on everybody?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 07-04-2015 9:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 07-04-2015 3:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 57 of 283 (761708)
07-04-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
07-04-2015 12:00 PM


Creator Of Time & Space
ringp writes:

And you like the idea of your friend forcing himself on everybody?

If my "friend" were in fact the Creator of all seen and unseen, it would be you that would have to force yourself to ignore Him.

Seems to me the problem isn't me. Granted, you want to be left alone. Granted its easier to deal with reality as we perceive it rather than being forced to read the pamphlet left at our door. If people try and force a way of belief, that is wrong. Calvinists believed in Monegismwhich comes from a compound Greek word that means “to work alone,” . They believed it was all on "my friend".

While monergism is closely associated with John Calvin, synergism is associated with Jacob Arminius, and his views have greatly shaped the modern evangelical landscape. The latter see it as a two way street. If you shut yourself up in the towers of your mind, how can my friend ever talk to you...except I suppose through me.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 07-05-2015 2:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13996
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 58 of 283 (761776)
07-05-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
07-04-2015 3:04 PM


Re: Creator Of Time & Space
Phat writes:

If you shut yourself up in the towers of your mind, how can my friend ever talk to you...except I suppose through me.


Maybe he should talk louder.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 07-04-2015 3:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 59 of 283 (761831)
07-06-2015 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by AZPaul3
06-24-2015 1:49 AM


Re: Lost In Space
AZPaul3 writes:

I am quite partial to the idea that when your kind of god, or any kind of god for that matter, confronts me and is rejected it would simply cease to exist.

Wouldn't that be the essence of free will?

We are free to believe in magic, leprechauns and imaginary friends---or to choose to believe that our concept of reality is all that matters to us.

We are of course responsible for our choices.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2015 1:49 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2015 8:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 60 of 283 (761945)
07-06-2015 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-06-2015 7:53 AM


Re: Lost In Space
AZPaul3 writes:

I am quite partial to the idea that when your kind of god, or any kind of god for that matter, confronts me and is rejected it would simply cease to exist.

Wouldn't that be the essence of free will?

I was destined by intellect and acculturation to be atheist. I am confident free will, defined as my ability to choose, had little if anything to do with the matter. I doubt your intellect and acculturation left you any choice in the matter either.

I was about to post more on free will and Calvinist pre-election v Arminian choice but in re-reading the OP I was reminded that the given supposition is that god exists. I shouldn't be contributing here. Hundreds of thousands of electrons deleted as off-topic.

But it is a good thread and with the different viewpoints expressed it is both instructive and entertaining. A gentle and intellectual way to proselytize, Phat. You done good. Thank you.

Edited by AZPaul3, : A tome that isn't anymore.


This message is a reply to:
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