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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 991 of 1068 (841066)
10-07-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by ICANT
10-07-2018 1:17 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

What is the duration of a day and what determines the length of that duration?


That depends on how you define "day". Day is not a standard unit of time.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:17 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 992 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 4:31 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1004 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 8:26 PM ringo has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4211
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 992 of 1068 (841081)
10-07-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by ringo
10-07-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Creation
Pedantically, "day" is a non-SI unit that is accepted for use with SI units. https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/outside.Html.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:55 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 993 of 1068 (841100)
10-08-2018 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 987 by JonF
10-07-2018 9:46 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

The choice of what to measure and how to divide up that measurement is purely arbitrary.

So time that we have been talking about is a concept of man that he has devised to measure the duration between events in existence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:46 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 996 by JonF, posted 10-08-2018 2:39 PM ICANT has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 994 of 1068 (841113)
10-08-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 976 by ICANT
10-06-2018 1:00 AM


Re: Creation
The moon doesn't have a watch either, but takes so much time to orbit. The issue of exactly how poor little mankind marks time is not so important. It still exists the same. To claim time is nothing but the way man marks time is actually foolish.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 976 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 1:00 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 2:17 PM creation has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 995 of 1068 (841151)
10-08-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by creation
10-08-2018 9:48 AM


Re: Creation
Hi creation,

creation writes:

The moon doesn't have a watch either, but takes so much time to orbit. The issue of exactly how poor little mankind marks time is not so important. It still exists the same. To claim time is nothing but the way man marks time is actually foolish.

Why would the moon need a watch? It is in it's orbit around the earth, and has nothing to do with the revolution of the earth relative to the sun.

How do you mark time? Time is what is used to measure duration between events in eternity.

Time does not exist. It is not an object, that can be measured. It is not a dimension of the universe. If it was you should be able to measure it with length, width, height or depth.

But what we call time is what we use to measure the duration between events in the universe (existence).

quote:
1.
the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.
"travel through space and time"
the progress of time as affecting people and things.
"things were getting better as time passed"
time or an amount of time as reckoned by a conventional standard.
"it's eight o'clock Eastern Standard Time"
the personification of time, typically as an old man with a scythe and hourglass.
noun: Time; noun: Father Time
2.
a point of time as measured in hours and minutes past midnight or noon.

https://www.google.com/search?ei=6oa7W4aaGubBjwSouoSYCQ&q...

quote:
Definition of time
1 a : the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration
b : a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future

quote:
Short Definitions
what clocks measure (attr. to physicists Albert Einstein, Donald Ivey, and others)
what prevents everything from happening at once (physicist John Wheeler and others)
a linear continuum of instants (philosopher Adolf Grnbaum)
a certain period during which something is done (Medical Dictionary)
a continuum that lacks spatial dimensions (Encyclopaedia Britannica)
Although each of these definitions is fine as far as it goes, none of them feel wholly satisfactory. Dictionary Definitions
Various dictionaries have defined time as follows:
the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present and future regarded as a whole (Oxford Dictionary)
the measured or measurable period during which an action, process or condition exists or continues (Websters Collegiate Dictionary)
the continuous passage of existence in which events pass from a state of potentiality in the future, through the present, to a state of finality in the past (World English Dictionary)
a continuous, measurable quantity in which events occur in a sequence proceeding from the past through the present to the future (Science Dictionary)
the measured or measurable period during which an action, process or condition exists or continues (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
the dimension of the physical universe that orders the sequence of events at a given place (McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology)
a non-spatial system in which events appear to happen in irreversible succession (WordSmyth Dictionary)
the inevitable progression into the future with the passing of present events into the past (Wiktionary)
the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole (Google)

quote:
Time standards based on Earth rotation.
Apparent solar time ('apparent' is often used in English-language sources, but 'true' in French astronomical literature[3]) is based on the solar day, which is the period between one solar noon (passage of the real Sun across the meridian) and the next. A solar day is approximately 24 hours of mean time. Because the Earth's orbit around the sun is elliptical, and because of the obliquity of the Earth's axis relative to the plane of the orbit (the ecliptic), the apparent solar day varies a few dozen seconds above or below the mean value of 24 hours. As the variation accumulates over a few weeks, there are differences as large as 16 minutes between apparent solar time and mean solar time (see Equation of time). However, these variations cancel out over a year. There are also other perturbations such as Earth's wobble, but these are less than a second per year.
Sidereal time is time by the stars. A sidereal rotation is the time it takes the Earth to make one revolution with rotation to the stars, approximately 23 hours 56 minutes 4 seconds. For accurate astronomical work on land, it was usual to observe sidereal time rather than solar time to measure mean solar time, because the observations of 'fixed' stars could be measured and reduced more accurately than observations of the Sun (in spite of the need to make various small compensations, for refraction, aberration, precession, nutation and proper motion). It is well known that observations of the Sun pose substantial obstacles to the achievement of accuracy in measurement.[4] In former times, before the distribution of accurate time signals, it was part of the routine work at any observatory to observe the sidereal times of meridian transit of selected 'clock stars' (of well-known position and movement), and to use these to correct observatory clocks running local mean sidereal time; but nowadays local sidereal time is usually generated by computer, based on time signals.[5]
Mean solar time was originally apparent solar time corrected by the equation of time. Mean solar time was sometimes derived, especially at sea for navigational purposes, by observing apparent solar time and then adding to it a calculated correction, the equation of time, which compensated for two known irregularities, caused by the ellipticity of the Earth's orbit and the obliquity of the Earth's equator and polar axis to the ecliptic (which is the plane of the Earth's orbit around the sun).
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was originally mean time deduced from meridian observations made at the Royal Greenwich Observatory (RGO). The principal meridian of that observatory was chosen in 1884 by the International Meridian Conference to be the Prime Meridian. GMT either by that name or as 'mean time at Greenwich' used to be an international time standard, but is no longer so; it was initially renamed in 1928 as Universal Time (UT) (partly as a result of ambiguities arising from the changed practice of starting the astronomical day at midnight instead of at noon, adopted as from 1 January 1925). The more current refined version of UT, UT1, is still in reality mean time at Greenwich. Greenwich Mean Time is still the legal time in the UK (in winter, and as adjusted by one hour for summer time). But Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) (an atomic-based time scale which is always kept within 0.9 second of UT1) is in common actual use in the UK, and the name GMT is often inaccurately used to refer to it. (See articles Greenwich Mean Time, Universal Time, Coordinated Universal Time and the sources they cite.)
Universal Time (UT) is mean solar time at 0 longitude; some implementations are
UT0 is the rotational time of a particular place of observation. It is observed as the diurnal motion of stars or extraterrestrial radio sources.
UT1 is computed by correcting UT0 for the effect of polar motion on the longitude of the observing site. It varies from uniformity because of the irregularities in Earth's rotation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...tandards_based_on_Earth_rotation

My conclusions:

There is existence.
There are events in this existence.
These events have duration between them.
We measure this duration with a human invention called time.

Time is a concept developed by mankind to measure the duration between events in existence (eternity).

Since it is man's concept he gets to determine what that concept is based upon. There are several mentioned above. Most of which are based upon the rotation on the earth relative to the sun or stars.

If you got a better definition share it with us.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:48 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 999 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-08-2018 4:30 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 1006 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:04 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4211
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 996 of 1068 (841152)
10-08-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 993 by ICANT
10-08-2018 1:32 AM


Re: Creation
So time that we have been talking about is a concept of man that he has devised to measure the duration between events in existence.

No, time exists. The units in which we choose to measure it are arbitrary. As are all the other fundamental units we use; length, mass, electric current, temperature, amount of a substance (Avogadro's number), and luminous intensity.

The map (seconds, minutes, hours,...) is not the territory (time)

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 1:32 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1008 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2018 6:00 PM JonF has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 997 of 1068 (841156)
10-08-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by ringo
10-07-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

They didn't "get" red from anywhere because red is not a thing that can be got. They appear red because they reflect light in the part of the spectrum that our eyes and brains call "red". Different substances appear as different colors because their different chemical structures reflect different wavelengths of light. Shine a different wavelength on it and it will no longer appear red, so there can not be any inherent red thing in it.

If it is all in my eye seeing the red in the red ochres how do they make red dye out of red ochres that can make a white piece of cloth look like it is red?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 998 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 3:11 PM ICANT has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 998 of 1068 (841157)
10-08-2018 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by ICANT
10-08-2018 3:02 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

If it is all in my eye seeing the red in the red ochres how do they make red dye out of red ochres that can make a white piece of cloth look like it is red?


As I said, under different lighting conditions it won't always appear as red. Shine a red light on a white coth and your eye/brain will see the same red. There is no "red" in the cloth. "Red" is the length of the light wave, a property of the light.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 3:02 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2018 6:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1723
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 999 of 1068 (841159)
10-08-2018 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 995 by ICANT
10-08-2018 2:17 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

It is not a dimension of the universe. If it was you should be able to measure it with length, width, height or depth.

So, the 4 dimensions are length, width, height and depth? I think you forgot here, now, then, and over there.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 2:17 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1000 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 4:47 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded
 Message 1012 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2018 6:58 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1000 of 1068 (841160)
10-08-2018 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 999 by Tanypteryx
10-08-2018 4:30 PM


Re: Creation
Blonde joke:

ICANT says to his blonde assistant, "We need to measure the height of this flagpole but I can't figure out how to get up there."

The blonde takes a wrench, undoes a couple of bolts and lays the flagpole down on the ground. Then she takes a tape measure, stretches it out and announces, "Fourteen feet and eight inches."

ICANT stands there shaking his head, "Typical blonde. I ask her for the height and she gives me the length."


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 999 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-08-2018 4:30 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1013 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2018 7:18 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1001 of 1068 (841171)
10-08-2018 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 987 by JonF
10-07-2018 9:46 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

No, it's difficult to measure the rotation of the Earth and it changes back and forth too much to be useful in precise measurements
BTW, the earth rotates in a little less than 24 hours relative to the Sun because of its orbital motion.

I don't see any problem in determining the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. You just use the equator as the point for comparison.

I think it is 3 minutes less than 24 hours.

Jon writes:

The units of time are arbitrarily chosen for convenience.

The Egyptians used the base 12 number rather than our base 10 number as they liked the base 12. Base 12 has a larger number of integer factors than 10. They are 12/6=2, 12/4=3, 12/3=4, 12/2=6, while 10/5=2 and 10/2=5 are all there are for the number 10).

The Egyptians only divided the light period and dark period into 24 hours. Twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness. The first minute and second minute began to be used in 150 AD. Minutes and seconds was not used until the first mechanical clocks that displayed minutes appeared near the end of the 16th century. But even today some time pieces do not display seconds.

Where I live we have 14 hours 6 minutes and 49 seconds of light on the longest day of the year. On the shortest day of the year we have 10 hrs 10 minutes and 53 seconds of light.

To the Egyptians that would have been 12 hrs of light and 12 hrs of darkness. So their hours did not contain 60 minutes every hour.

This changed in 1967, when the second was redefined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 energy transitions of the cesium atom.

But this created a problem, in order to keep atomic time in agreement with astronomical time, leap seconds occasionally must be added to UTC.

Time would become useless if the clock's did not match reality.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:46 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1005 by JonF, posted 10-08-2018 9:23 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1002 of 1068 (841173)
10-08-2018 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 988 by JonF
10-07-2018 9:48 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

If the duration of a day is based on sunrise and sunset, the duration varies from zero to infinity. The length is determined by the Earth's rotation, its axial tilt, where the Earth is in its orbit, and where you are on the Earth.

The earth revolves at near 1,000 mph at a point near the equator. This line is the only one that would take the most duration in the revolution. As you move away from the equator either north or south the amount of time and speed would reduce.

Therefore to talk about a 24 hour day you have to talk about what transpires at or near the equator.

So what is the problem with determining the duration of a day?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:48 AM JonF has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1003 of 1068 (841174)
10-08-2018 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 989 by JonF
10-07-2018 9:51 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

What Man knows about the origin of the universe and the origin of life fills many, many books. Far better writers than I have explained it in various levels of detail. I'm not going to try to better their efforts in a relatively brief posting. I'll be glad to dig up some links if you are interested.

So you don't know.

cavediver and Son Goku both have stated on this web site "we don't know".

There is no scientific book that address the origin of the universe or life. If you know of one I would like a reference.

There have been proposals put forward with no evidence.
Those proposals have no more weight than the Bible story of creation. In fact I believe they have a lot less because the Bible does make prediction that has been discovered l,000's of years after they were made. Those proposals have nothing.

But maybe you have something new you can point me too.

ABE Have you read Message 1 If not why not discuss it with me I noticed you have not replided to it.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : Add link


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 989 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:51 AM JonF has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5970
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1004 of 1068 (841176)
10-08-2018 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by ringo
10-07-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

That depends on how you define "day". Day is not a standard unit of time.

I prefer God's definition found in Genesis 1:5.

quote:
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A period of light was called Day.
The evening of that light period and the following dark period were declared Day one.

So my definition of Day would be a light period.

Also a light period followed by a dark period would be called a day.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:38 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4211
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1005 of 1068 (841177)
10-08-2018 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1001 by ICANT
10-08-2018 7:26 PM


Re: Creation
I don't see any problem in determining the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. You just use the equator as the point for comparison

So, I'm in a lab in Sheboygan, Wisconsin and running an experiment that requires timing to femtosecond precision. How do I ensure my femtosecond is exactly everyone else's femtosecond.

(This sort of thing happens, except for the location. It's difficult to do using atomic clocks because you have to account for relativistic effects from differences in altitude and velocity).

Oh, and, that equator is the celestial equator, not the Earth's equator.

The Egyptians used the base 12 number rather than our base 10 number as they liked the base 12.

Thank you for acknowledging that I am correct saying that the choice of units is arbitrary and done for convenience. BTW, 60 comes from the Babylonians. It has more divisors than 10 or 12.

While looking stuff up I found Wikipedia: hour. It mentions the ancient Chinese system of dividing the day into 100 marks, the Southeast Asian system of four quarters in the day and each divided into six hours (so the we would call their first hour of the first day quarter our 7 AM), and the Hindus in India:

quote:
The Vedas and Puranas employed units of time based on the sidereal day (nakṣatra ahorātram). This was variously divided into 30 muhūtras of 48 minutes each or 60 dandas or nads of 24 minutes each.[40] The solar day was later similarly divided into 60 ghaṭiks of about the same duration, each divided in turn into 60 vinadis.[40] The Sinhalese followed a similar system but called their sixtieth of a day a peya.

The rest of what you write is true but irrelevant to the arbitrariness of our choices of units. Except:

To the Egyptians that would have been 12 hrs of light and 12 hrs of darkness. So their hours did not contain 60 minutes every hour.

This changed in 1967, when the second was redefined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 energy transitions of the cesium atom.


The variable-length hour was discarded long, long ago except for some Jewish ceremonial applications. The history of the second is more complex than that.

Seconds first appeared in the mechanical clocks of the late 16th century. Accurate measurement of seconds didn't show up until Huygens' pendulum clock in the mid-17th century. Nobody cared much about precise and available standards until the 19th century, but by then the second was pretty widely recognized as 1/86,400 of a mean solar day. This was formalized in 1940. But even then better standards were desirable. In 1956 the second was defined as 1/31,556,925.9747 of the tropical year for 1900 January 0 at 12 hours ephemeris time because the Earth's orbit around the Sun is more stable than the Earth's rotation, and this was adopted internationally in 1960. Then there was the current definition seven years later. Some day the second will probably be redefined by optical lattice clocks.

There are actually three slightly different systems in use; which one you use is decided by convenience. From Wikipedia's article on seconds :

quote:
A set of atomic clocks throughout the world keeps time by consensus: the clocks "vote" on the correct time, and all voting clocks are steered to agree with the consensus, which is called International Atomic Time (TAI). TAI "ticks" atomic seconds.[4]

Civil time is defined to agree with the rotation of the earth. The international standard for timekeeping is Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). This time scale "ticks" the same atomic seconds as TAI, but inserts or omits leap seconds as necessary to correct for variations in the rate of rotation of the earth.[5]

A time scale in which the seconds are not exactly equal to atomic seconds is UT1, a form of universal time. UT1 is defined by the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun, and does not contain any leap seconds.[6] UT1 always differs from UTC by less than a second.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 7:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2018 9:44 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
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