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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Reminds me of something Velikovsky wrote. Some fish fossils had died with horrified expressions on their faces indicated that they must have died in some immense catastrophe. But I would think that their own deaths (and maybe the deaths of their loved-fish) would have been horrifying enough. It would have to be something of a huge magnitude they couldn't escape except by being on a boat, which wouldn't be needed if it was just a local flood.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thank you. I should have reported it long ago but I had this weird idea that it was just something about what brackets do that was causing the problem and I had the responsibility to remember to avoid it. Being tech-challenged plays havoc with computer life.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: They’re not going to just disappear. Some of them are going to get buried somehow.
quote: That is a weird objection. A typical vertebrate fossil is disarticulated “bare bones”. Often just a few. Complete or near complete skeletons are much rarer. Arguing that fossils should be the way that they really are doesn’t really work for you.
quote: I have no idea what makes you think that conditions are “remarkably uniform”. Buried by sandstorms or landslides or volcanic eruptions, or being swept along by a river buried where it is building up sediment or being covered in sediment at the bottom of an anoxic lake all seem fairly different to me.
quote: Your idea that it is absurd that we would see distinct things from different time periods in the fossil record. Obviously there is nothing absurd about finding creatures living at the time the material was deposited as fossils. Nor is there anything absurd about life changing over time.
quote: It is not to be expected to happen to any particular individual. But that is a long way from expecting it not to happen at all. In fact we should expect it to happen to some, it’s statistically inevitable.
quote: It’s not that regular, the conditions are hardly uniform, the contact lines have nothing to do with fossilisation, the “specific sorted out corpses” are a problem for your view as is the “stacking”.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
The people who came along and overturned that established wisdom were the natural philosophers, geologists, paleontologists, chemists, physicists, etc etc etc, who showed that the Flood could not have been anything but a local event, if it even was a particular event and not merely a memory of various floods over the ages. However, there was a global world-wide flood that we are still in the middle of. And which is now getting much worse. Again from my geology page (1990), GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF AN ANCIENT EARTH:
quote:As promised earlier: Of course, the actual world-wide flood is nothing at all like in creationists' wet dreams.
ABE:There is also archaeological evidence of submerged man-made structures. Several dwellings have been found in the Black Sea which would help support the Black Sea Hypothesis (ie, a natural dam burst). There have also been documentaries of sunken cities or temples off the coast, such as one off of India. Both of those would be due to rising sea levels. Edited by dwise1, : ABE Edited by dwise1, : use the adjective, not the adverb!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Zeus, Thor, Indra, etc. Why should different cultures all have a thunderbolt-throwing god? Two things: There IS a "thunderbolt throwing god" though he got deposed by Jesus Christ. And cultures passed their religions and their stories on to each other. The Two Babylons is a book that traces the pagan religion of Semiramus and Tammuz through cultures all over the world, ending up in the pagan superstitions of the Roman Church. And of course the Flood story would have been handed down the same way. They all came originally from the family on the ark, and that story was handed down, same as the stories of the pagan gods and religions they developed, that distorted the story of the true God but nevertheless got preserved in that distorted fashion. Pagan religion distorted the memory of the true God due to the influence of demons, and the same happened with the memory of the Flood.
Big floods are life-changing events, from Johnstown to the great Mississippi flood of 1927 to Katrina. They go back far into history: the Nile floods, the monsoons in south Asia, the tsunamis of the Pacific ring of fire, the Lake Geneva flood of the year 563, the Yellow River is known as "China's Sorrow" for the catastrophic floods that killed millions and scoured the countryside, changing the very landscape. Water is life and people live near water. Those all clearly present local floods. The universal flood stories are smething different. Gilgamesh is the one that most clearly refers to a worldwide flood, but there are plenty of others that are clearly NOT about local floods but give a distorted picture of the flood of Noah in the understanding of many scholars. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 624 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
The floods of the Yellow River or the Nile floods or any other catastrophic event would have come down in history as affecting "everyone" and "everything" because they affected all the world known to those people.
The bible doesn't refer to China, so why should a flood referred to in the bible be thought of as affecting China?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Chemical lithification doesn't need thousands of years. And if you squash pores what happens to the water in them?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They didn't affect ppeople to the extent of their only being saved on a boat. They are clearly local no matter how catastrophic.
Why do you believe all that and deny the Biblical account? That one just doesn't count of course, only the reimaginings of atheists matter, only the corrupted pagan world matters, only the debunkery matters, the denigration of the biblical account is the point, the one story that accounts for all the rest of them. The Bible needs to refer to China to describe a worldwide Flood? Why is that? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 763 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Tell that to the 900 people that drowned in New Orleans in 2005.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 624 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
The bible literalists would say that a flood referred to as covering all the world meant a flood covering the entire surface of the planet simultaneously, rather than just the part of the world the storytellers knew. But the bible is clearly not to be taken literally (There obviously were rainbows before the time of Noah, for example).
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 763 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
China isn’t part of the world? Worldwide describes the entire enchilada, nicht wahr?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your use of the word "backwater" just shows how people are so often living near water! MY use? I was just using YOUR word.
So they would all have stories about a flood. On the contrary. See Message 163
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Uh, a worldwide Flood would have flooded everything in the world, there's no need to name each part of it for that to be true.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Chemical lithification doesn't need thousands of years
Really? Show us a citation.
And if you squash pores what happens to the water in them?
Water is essentially incompressible, so any gas would be compressed to essentially zero volume until there was only water that doesn't change volume. Except for any edges exposed to the atmosphere (very rare) the pressure would be almost perfectly hydrostatic (acting equally in all directions -- see Newton's second law). The hydrostatic component of stress does not move the water. The non-hydrostatic component does move the water, very slowly, through pores so small that the frictio of the water against the solid wall is significant, resisting the motion. It moves somewhere between a few yards per day and and an inch per century, depending on lots of factors... although lithifying rocks tend toward the slower end because of the very small pore sizes.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Wow. Jesus deposed the Father? That's unusual Christian theology.
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