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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 2365 (857185)
07-06-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
07-05-2019 9:04 AM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Would you say that the flood stories were parables and teachable moments? What was the motive of the stories being recorded?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 07-05-2019 9:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 07-06-2019 12:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-06-2019 2:34 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 07-06-2019 2:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 2365 (857192)
07-06-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by edge
07-06-2019 12:26 PM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Good point,. I'll never win this argument because though most apologists believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, I need to somehow defend the absolute idea of God found in its pages from the numerous other definitions of God, god, and GOD proposed by innumerable religions, philosophies and assertions. I think I will just stick to my basic arguments that I make in my own words as my understanding grows.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 07-06-2019 12:26 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 2365 (857805)
07-11-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by mike the wiz
07-11-2019 10:06 AM


Re: Nope.
Even though I am a firm believer in a living God through Jesus Christ, I am not as sold on this whole mindset that defends Biblical Creationism. Critics will no doubt accuse me of nitpicking, but your Link from AnswersInGenesis is suspect because this ministry has been shown to be dishonest and exploitative of secular funds in furthering their ridiculous Biblical Ark theme park. Now to be fair, Mike...I wont claim so much arrogance as to write you (and Faith) off as delusional in regards to YEC. We all have essentially the same critics and the secular critics lambaste me as much as they do you guys. (in regards to my insistence that God is alive through Jesus and that we are in a Spiritual War)
MTW writes:

nitpicking one or two examples then complaining, won't change the overall theme here which is that evolution is fiction.

Explain why the only "scientists" who see this obvious "evidence" which you mention see the picture differently than do the mainstream scientists? Are the mainstream scientists blinded by denial of the living God? Are the "creationist" scientists somehow enlightened by and through the Holy Spirit? We need answers in reality, not simply cut & pastes from Answers In Genesis.

Addressing the rest of you, and mindful of the fact that this is a science thread, I can only post yet again the basic reason that creationists never argue the position rationally:

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2019 10:06 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 3:09 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 2365 (857809)
07-11-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
07-11-2019 12:55 PM


Re: The Vexed Problem for Creationists of Providing Evidence
Physical evidence should exist. We need to open a belief based thread to further discuss this stuff, since none of us (believers) can provide satisfactory evidence for our claims. Personally I label myself as a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that God existed eternally before matter and energy. I have no physics-based proof of my claim and can only speculate inferentially and philosophically as to my World View.

I trust the Pastors who have this non-evidence based supernatural view, however. Ed Taylor is Aurora, Colorado is one of them.
Word Of Knowledge,Prt 1

You are correct, however Percy. This "word of knowledge" has no facts to back it up.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 12:55 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 4:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1624 of 2365 (877610)
06-19-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1623 by ringo
06-19-2020 10:32 AM


Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
Science is very good at defining reality that can be tested. Science will never prove nor disprove God nor the Risen Christ because neither of them can be tested.At least not objectively, which is what you always insists should apply.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1623 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 10:32 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1625 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1626 of 2365 (877616)
06-19-2020 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1613 by dad
06-01-2020 3:35 AM


Dad and Science
vimesey writes:

Assertion.
No evidence.
Fail.

To be precise, the failure in this case is the failure to present a supportable science based challenge. Note that this is a science Forum.

Dad, please listen to moderation. If you stay here at EvC, you will get challenged and perhaps someday will challenge others as your arguments become more refined and you are able to make valid points. If you challenge authority (which is ungodly, by the way) you will simply get suspended and we will be at a loss for not having you around to challenge and refine *our* arguments.

ringo writes:

Again, you do not get to define science. Nobody cares what you think science is.


Well actually some of us *do* care. After all, if you respond to us in a Science Forum, we expect you to respond scientifically rather than emotionally. Which is why I usually stay out of this side of the Forum.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1613 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:35 AM dad has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1627 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 10:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1628 of 2365 (877618)
06-19-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1625 by ringo
06-19-2020 10:45 AM


Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
ringo writes:

Actually, they can. It isn't a definitive test but lack of evidence is a test. You accept that lack of evidence indicates non-existence of fairies, Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't you?

Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.

And a hiding God is pretty lame theology too.
You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame. Keep these sorts of comments inj Faith & Belief. You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum. You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1625 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1629 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:03 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1630 of 2365 (877621)
06-19-2020 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1629 by ringo
06-19-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
Lets move this discussion over here. Message 47

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1629 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:03 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1668 of 2365 (878516)
06-30-2020 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1667 by ringo
06-30-2020 5:37 PM


Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
Computers are evidence that science gets results.
Computers do nothing but quantify numbers into a replicable value. If a value created by a machine counts as evidence, why not a philosophical value involving spoken words?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1667 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 5:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1673 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 11:06 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1758 of 2365 (878819)
07-05-2020 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1753 by dad
07-05-2020 2:39 AM


Re: the world that then was
dad writes:

Looking at a dead tree does not tell us how fast it used to grow.


By that logic, if it takes the light from stars 7-100 light years to arrive at earth and that we essentially look back through the portals of time when we view the stars--even through powerful telescopes, then we could for all intents and purposes simply see the past universe and the actual universe may have long since ceased to exist. What do you think about that?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1753 by dad, posted 07-05-2020 2:39 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1760 by JonF, posted 07-05-2020 11:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1767 by dad, posted 07-05-2020 1:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14664
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1781 of 2365 (878856)
07-06-2020 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1779 by Capt Stormfield
07-05-2020 8:54 PM


Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
Wait a minute.... *rubs sleep from eyes*....
Now let me reread this conversation and see if I have it straight!
(starting at Message 1764
dad, addressing ringo writes:

We believe what we choose.

OK, so first off, who is *we*? All of us?
*takes a sip of coffee, continuing to rub sleep from eyes*
dad writes:

Since science doesn't know either was no one needs to or can show how some unknown nature in the past changed. All that is needed is to realize science only believes and does not know.

I'm not understanding. Science in this context means the collective critical thought process and data analysis of the scientiofic community-at-large correct? And I'm assuming that you dont consider yourself part of this community...or am I wrong?
If not, which of the following most closely mirrors your position?
  • I consider myself an independent thinker.
  • I consider myself part of an "alternative" scientific community and am challenging the consensus of the traditional scientific community made up of the people who study tree rings, among other things.
  • I consider only what I wish to consider. We call it the Humpty Dumpty syndrome.
    quote:
    “I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

    So we have a guy at our Forum...named dad....who is attempting to school us as if we are his children.

    *pours out coffee and goes back to sleep*


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1779 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-05-2020 8:54 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1786 by dad, posted 07-06-2020 1:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14664
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1807 of 2365 (879008)
    07-09-2020 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1806 by JonF
    07-09-2020 2:44 PM


    Re: Historical record evidence
    One common trait which I see in many arguments is the stubborn insistence of some to frame the argument solely in their own method...ignoring any attempts to deflect it from that frame. Dad obviously w2ants...insists...that you acknowledge his point. Refusal to do so causes him to become stubborn and repetitive.

    No amount of further progress is possible.

    But in the context of a bigger picture, what precisely is each side attempting to prove?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1806 by JonF, posted 07-09-2020 2:44 PM JonF has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1808 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 4:16 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14664
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1940 of 2365 (880164)
    07-30-2020 10:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 1911 by Juvenissun
    07-28-2020 5:05 PM


    My 2 cents
    Well this is interesting! I get to meet a new member... And so far your argument appears to be polite and reasonable. Do try and stick around if you want to learn something. And welcome to EvC, Juvenissun. My name is Phat, and I spend most of my time in the Faith & Belief section of the forum, which is where I perceive most of your argument belonging. Ask any of these guys here. They regularly challenge my faith & belief which is fine and dandy but I never dare argue anything in the science side of the Forum (which this topic is, by the way) without having studied the science to support my points.
    That being said....

    The earth has the largest amount of ocean water in the solar system.
    Have they even "found" ocean water...or even oceans or water...on any other planets IN the solar system?

    But, in the solar system, the earth is the only place allows a global flood.

    Admit that first. This eliminates the statement: the global flood is impossible.

    Well...with God, ALL things are possible. But again, this IS a science forum. One of our members, a feisty old guy from Texas, always steers me towards CONTENT rather than SOURCE when arguing. So even if we disagree about the SOURCE (God the Creator vs Natural Processes that originated from a singularity which Hawking argues can and will create itself from "nothing"), the issue is not the source but the content of the understanding...the science. We know very little about the solar system. We DO know about water, about floods, and about the Geographic History of the earth. Or do you have an argument that challenges the established science?
    I am only talking about the possibility of having the global flood.

    I am a believer. I believe that God initially created the Heavens(Universe,Solar System, potential Multiverses and so on)and the Earth. That being said, I am not a word for word Biblical literalist. There are many things that we humans do not understand, including the very concept of God the Creator. But again, that is not a question that current science can answer.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1911 by Juvenissun, posted 07-28-2020 5:05 PM Juvenissun has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1943 by Juvenissun, posted 07-30-2020 12:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14664
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1941 of 2365 (880168)
    07-30-2020 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 1673 by ringo
    07-01-2020 11:06 AM


    Re: Just as the fact that there is no "Bible™" ...
    I had to again share this cartoon taken from my Message 266

    Its funny, but the basic point of the cartoon is that one needs to stop and think how they construct an argument and what it is that they are really trying to "prove".


    ringo writes:

    The point is that science gets RESULTS.

    I'll give you that. In Geology, progress is made through study of accumulated evidence arrived at through testing. As far as I know, Geologists don't regularly hold prayer meetings.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1673 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 11:06 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1944 by Juvenissun, posted 07-30-2020 12:17 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14664
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2027 of 2365 (880418)
    08-05-2020 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 2026 by Tangle
    08-05-2020 8:40 AM


    Critical Thinkers, Trolls,Atheists & Believers
    Tangle, to Juvenissun writes:

    I'm an atheist so of course I see the entirety of the story as myth. What does that have to do with you telling us what your case for the Flood is?

    What I'm trying to get him to see is the different thought process demanded in our Science Forums.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2026 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2020 8:40 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2030 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2020 3:13 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 2032 by jar, posted 08-05-2020 5:18 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 2038 by Juvenissun, posted 08-05-2020 7:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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