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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Would you say that the flood stories were parables and teachable moments? What was the motive of the stories being recorded?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Good point,. I'll never win this argument because though most apologists believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, I need to somehow defend the absolute idea of God found in its pages from the numerous other definitions of God, god, and GOD proposed by innumerable religions, philosophies and assertions. I think I will just stick to my basic arguments that I make in my own words as my understanding grows.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Even though I am a firm believer in a living God through Jesus Christ, I am not as sold on this whole mindset that defends Biblical Creationism. Critics will no doubt accuse me of nitpicking, but your Link from AnswersInGenesis is suspect because this ministry has been shown to be dishonest and exploitative of secular funds in furthering their ridiculous Biblical Ark theme park. Now to be fair, Mike...I wont claim so much arrogance as to write you (and Faith) off as delusional in regards to YEC. We all have essentially the same critics and the secular critics lambaste me as much as they do you guys. (in regards to my insistence that God is alive through Jesus and that we are in a Spiritual War)
MTW writes: Explain why the only "scientists" who see this obvious "evidence" which you mention see the picture differently than do the mainstream scientists? Are the mainstream scientists blinded by denial of the living God? Are the "creationist" scientists somehow enlightened by and through the Holy Spirit? We need answers in reality, not simply cut & pastes from Answers In Genesis. nitpicking one or two examples then complaining, won't change the overall theme here which is that evolution is fiction. Addressing the rest of you, and mindful of the fact that this is a science thread, I can only post yet again the basic reason that creationists never argue the position rationally:
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Physical evidence should exist. We need to open a belief based thread to further discuss this stuff, since none of us (believers) can provide satisfactory evidence for our claims. Personally I label myself as a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that God existed eternally before matter and energy. I have no physics-based proof of my claim and can only speculate inferentially and philosophically as to my World View.
I trust the Pastors who have this non-evidence based supernatural view, however. Ed Taylor is Aurora, Colorado is one of them.
Word Of Knowledge,Prt 1 You are correct, however Percy. This "word of knowledge" has no facts to back it up.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Science is very good at defining reality that can be tested. Science will never prove nor disprove God nor the Risen Christ because neither of them can be tested.At least not objectively, which is what you always insists should apply.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
vimesey writes: Assertion.No evidence. Fail. To be precise, the failure in this case is the failure to present a supportable science based challenge. Note that this is a science Forum. Dad, please listen to moderation. If you stay here at EvC, you will get challenged and perhaps someday will challenge others as your arguments become more refined and you are able to make valid points. If you challenge authority (which is ungodly, by the way) you will simply get suspended and we will be at a loss for not having you around to challenge and refine *our* arguments.
ringo writes:
Well actually some of us *do* care. After all, if you respond to us in a Science Forum, we expect you to respond scientifically rather than emotionally. Which is why I usually stay out of this side of the Forum. Again, you do not get to define science. Nobody cares what you think science is.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.
Actually, they can. It isn't a definitive test but lack of evidence is a test. You accept that lack of evidence indicates non-existence of fairies, Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't you? And a hiding God is pretty lame theology too. You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame. Keep these sorts of comments inj Faith & Belief. You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum. You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lets move this discussion over here. Message 47
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Computers are evidence that science gets results. Computers do nothing but quantify numbers into a replicable value. If a value created by a machine counts as evidence, why not a philosophical value involving spoken words? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dad writes:
By that logic, if it takes the light from stars 7-100 light years to arrive at earth and that we essentially look back through the portals of time when we view the stars--even through powerful telescopes, then we could for all intents and purposes simply see the past universe and the actual universe may have long since ceased to exist. What do you think about that? Looking at a dead tree does not tell us how fast it used to grow."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Wait a minute.... *rubs sleep from eyes*....
Now let me reread this conversation and see if I have it straight! (starting at Message 1764 dad, addressing ringo writes: OK, so first off, who is *we*? All of us? We believe what we choose.*takes a sip of coffee, continuing to rub sleep from eyes* dad writes: I'm not understanding. Science in this context means the collective critical thought process and data analysis of the scientiofic community-at-large correct? And I'm assuming that you dont consider yourself part of this community...or am I wrong? Since science doesn't know either was no one needs to or can show how some unknown nature in the past changed. All that is needed is to realize science only believes and does not know.If not, which of the following most closely mirrors your position? quote: So we have a guy at our Forum...named dad....who is attempting to school us as if we are his children. *pours out coffee and goes back to sleep* "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One common trait which I see in many arguments is the stubborn insistence of some to frame the argument solely in their own method...ignoring any attempts to deflect it from that frame. Dad obviously w2ants...insists...that you acknowledge his point. Refusal to do so causes him to become stubborn and repetitive.
No amount of further progress is possible. But in the context of a bigger picture, what precisely is each side attempting to prove?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Well this is interesting! I get to meet a new member... And so far your argument appears to be polite and reasonable. Do try and stick around if you want to learn something. And welcome to EvC, Juvenissun. My name is Phat, and I spend most of my time in the Faith & Belief section of the forum, which is where I perceive most of your argument belonging. Ask any of these guys here. They regularly challenge my faith & belief which is fine and dandy but I never dare argue anything in the science side of the Forum (which this topic is, by the way) without having studied the science to support my points.
That being said.... The earth has the largest amount of ocean water in the solar system. Have they even "found" ocean water...or even oceans or water...on any other planets IN the solar system?
But, in the solar system, the earth is the only place allows a global flood. Well...with God, ALL things are possible. But again, this IS a science forum. One of our members, a feisty old guy from Texas, always steers me towards CONTENT rather than SOURCE when arguing. So even if we disagree about the SOURCE (God the Creator vs Natural Processes that originated from a singularity which Hawking argues can and will create itself from "nothing"), the issue is not the source but the content of the understanding...the science. We know very little about the solar system. We DO know about water, about floods, and about the Geographic History of the earth. Or do you have an argument that challenges the established science? Admit that first. This eliminates the statement: the global flood is impossible.I am only talking about the possibility of having the global flood.
I am a believer. I believe that God initially created the Heavens(Universe,Solar System, potential Multiverses and so on)and the Earth. That being said, I am not a word for word Biblical literalist. There are many things that we humans do not understand, including the very concept of God the Creator. But again, that is not a question that current science can answer. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I had to again share this cartoon taken from my Message 266
Its funny, but the basic point of the cartoon is that one needs to stop and think how they construct an argument and what it is that they are really trying to "prove".
ringo writes: I'll give you that. In Geology, progress is made through study of accumulated evidence arrived at through testing. As far as I know, Geologists don't regularly hold prayer meetings. The point is that science gets RESULTS."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle, to Juvenissun writes: What I'm trying to get him to see is the different thought process demanded in our Science Forums. I'm an atheist so of course I see the entirety of the story as myth. What does that have to do with you telling us what your case for the Flood is?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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