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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 301 (301957)
04-07-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 11:17 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
What does this mean? I, for example, believe in the theory of evolution. Is my belief "individual and personal"?

We may well be falling into dueling definitions, but I'll try to answer.

I don't believe in the Theory of Evolution. I accept the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation I've heard yet, but that is based on the available evidence. That evidence is so overwhelming IMHO that to deny it would requre an act of Wilfull Ignorance.

The existence of GOD though is something I believe in. I believe that the evidence is there, but also realize that that evidence is nowhere as overwhelming as for the TOE, nor is much of it subject to scientific exploration.

How do you know they are pointless and futile? Maybe we can figure things out deductively.

I laid out the reasoning for that.

If GOD exists, It exists regardless of any evidence that She does not exist.

If GOD does not exist, She does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:17 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:03 PM jar has responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 122 of 301 (301958)
04-07-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 11:25 AM


Robinrohan writes:

I would think one would have to be an agnostic due to lack of evidence.

Yeah your probly right. As I said in Message 5 of 120:

I think yout premise is flawed

I also should have used the word agnostic rather than atheist. :o


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:25 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 301 (301960)
04-07-2006 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:26 AM


Re: Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
These conflicting view reinforce (in my mind) that the xian god is what ever anyone thinks it is: I have never heard two xians who agree.

One of the things I like about the Episcopal Church is that there will be atleast one other Episcopalian that agrees with your point of view. In most cases that is.

Robin Williams writes:

10. No snake handling.

9. You can believe in dinosaurs.

8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them.

7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.

6. Pew aerobics.

5. Church year is color-coded.

4. Free wine on Sunday.

3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.

2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.

And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:

1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.

But that is not the point. In these discussions, all we can do is post the best defense of our positions possible. iano will post his, I post mine, and you the reader will judge.

I will never ask someone to believe something based on my opinion. That is up to the individual. I will though try my best to make my position clear. If you can understand my position, even if you disagree with it, then I suceeded. If though my position does not answer the questions you raise, then I have failed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:26 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:46 AM jar has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 301 (301961)
04-07-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
I've asked at least twice for any reason to entertain the existance of a god and have had no reply.

There being more people that do believe in god than do not is a reason to, at least, entertain the possibility of the existance of god.

The Bible makes a claim that god exists. That is a reason to, at least, entertain the possibility that god exists.

Me telling you that god does exists is a reason to entertain the possibility too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:21 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 125 of 301 (301964)
04-07-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by JavaMan
04-07-2006 11:27 AM


Re: Atheism is a leap of faith
Personally I think atheism is as much a leap of faith as belief in a god. Agnosticism is the rational, sceptical position.

There was a long discussion on this at one point on another thread and I think Crashfrog stated the best position of being a "provisional atheist". That is having no belief in god(s) until some evidence appears. I believe this is really the most rational and honest position.

*fixed spelling and such

This message has been edited by kjsimons, 04-07-2006 11:42 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by JavaMan, posted 04-07-2006 11:27 AM JavaMan has not yet responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 126 of 301 (301969)
04-07-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
04-07-2006 11:38 AM


Re: Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
If I ever was going to follow a religion, I think your's sounds pretty damn civilised. :)

I take your point and can see where you are coming from.

To quote Joe Haldeman: "...you pays your money and takes your frame of reference."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 12:06 PM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 127 of 301 (301973)
04-07-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
Hmmm....

I can't help but think that appealing to the majority or authority is a logical fallacy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 11:59 AM Larni has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 128 of 301 (301975)
04-07-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:06 AM


This means that all the murderers in the world who believe in your god rub shoulders with with all the virtuous (who believe in your god) in heaven, where as the fellow who spends his whole life working for charity in India (being Hindu) would not get into heaven and would at best go to purgatory.

You're implying here that our being given eternal life (or not) depends (or should depend) on our behaviour no matter what we believe. This is a very natural thing to think - and so, man-made Religions, (even some which call themselves 'Christian') have that man-derived-intuition at the root. Jars Christianity is a variation ion of this, where salvation is given to all but we can lose it through behaviour. Gain it through behaviour/lose it through behaviour: two sides of the same, "our behaviour determines whether we reach eternal life" coin. Eternal life is in our hands iow

That all world Religions in a nutshell at their root.

Then there is Christianity. Its counter-intuitive. God gives salvation and it is not dependant on our behaviour. If Hitler believed he is in heaven. If Pope John Paul II believed, he is in heaven. Crazy heh?

Now you might say "I think Mother Theresa did great work and she should be in heaven. And Hitler was a real stinker so he should rot in Hell (if either exists). Yuo are applying your own standards shared though they may be with many others. But many thought and think what Hitler did was fine and many opposed Mother Theresa in her work. They didn't share your standards. Not that either point of view matters much in the end. Obviously Gods standard is the one that must apply (if he exists)

And according to his standard, both Mother Theresa and Hitler stank to high heaven before they believed (if they believed in him). Gods standard is so high that it is the equivilent of someone looking down from the moon and trying to discern the relative height of two grains of sand on the beach. From the moon the look to be at exactly the same distance from the moon.

So everyone, irrespective of title or religion is as far removed from meeting Gods standards. There is no point in you, another grain of sand pointing to grain-of-sand Mother Theresa and shouting that it is closer to the moon than grain-of-sand Hilter. God on the moon doesn't see the difference. And its again, what he thinks, you might agree (if this God exists) that matters.

That's the distance that separates our actions from Gods standards. It is the same as the distance that separates the power of creativity of God (if he made all this) from our own power of creativity. No comparison in standards of goodness/no comparison in standards of creativity

And it should be obvious that if this were the case then trying to attain to Gods standards as a way to eternal life (for he tolerates no less in the end) is a fools errant. Grains of sand shooting for the moon.

And God being God, being love as well as wrath and justice, knows that it is impossible so did something about it. Something that would make it possible for grains of sand to be taken to the moon (in terms of goodness). He offers us a gift, a robe of goodness to wear over our shabbyness. He offers to cloth us with his goodness. And whatever his standard of goodness (for there is much debate about it here), were we clothed in it then it would naturally match his standard.

And then there would be nothing to bar the way to eternal life

The robe is called Jesus. We can take it or leave it. Its offered free simply because we have nothing to pay for it with. What could we offer God to pay for his own son.

And after accepting the gift realisations as to cost begin to enter ones thoughts. And one is left open mouthed at what God has done. Ones gratitude towards God tends to make one want to murder and masturbate less. So whilst I'm sure you will find (God willing) a lot of people who were murderers, rapists, paodphiles before they believed, you might find a lot less who did the same things after they believed. And I'm sure you will find some who were Hindu/Muslim/New Age charity workers before they beleived too

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:06 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:26 PM iano has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 301 (301979)
04-07-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:48 AM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
I can't help but think that appealing to the majority or authority is a logical fallacy.

So.

I maintain that they are reasons to entertain the possibility of the existance of god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:48 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 301 (301983)
04-07-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
04-07-2006 11:30 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
If GOD exists, It exists regardless of any evidence that She does not exist.

If GOD does not exist, She does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.

You can repeating this incantatory formula as if it contained some great truth. I don't think anyone will disagree with you about the fact that what we think about God does not affect whether He exists or not. You can stop repeating that. We all agree with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:30 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 12:10 PM robinrohan has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 301 (301984)
04-07-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:46 AM


on Following a Religion.
If I ever was going to follow a religion, I think your's sounds pretty damn civilised.

Well, perhaps you are following a religion. If you don't mind, I'd like to return for a moment to Matthew 25.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Note the verse beginning with 37. The folk selected as sheep are really surprised. They never expected to be chosen.

If you try to do right instead or wrong, if you do the little things in everyday life, if you help someone unload their shopping cart at the checkout counter, open doors for folk, stoop down when talking to kids so you are at their level, help get stuff down from shelves for someone who cannot reach it, then you are following Christianity.

There's no big requirements there. No need to acknowledge GOD, no need to follow forms or rituals, just try to do what's right.

None of us knows for sure if GOD exists, or if there is life after death, or if there is heaven or hell, but GOD knows and understands that. She doesn't ask us to do miracles. Just try our best.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:46 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:30 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 301 (301989)
04-07-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:03 PM


Then why this thread?
You can repeating this incantatory formula as if it contained some great truth. I don't think anyone will disagree with you about the fact that what we think about God does not affect whether He exists or not. You can stop repeating that. We all agree with you.

Well, since everyone agrees with me, perhaps it does contain some great truth. LOL

And if you agree with it, then why a thread called "The Case Against the Existence of God?"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:03 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:24 PM jar has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 301 (301993)
04-07-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by JavaMan
04-07-2006 8:55 AM


Re: What is pretend about living?
Similarly, an atheist doesn't believe there's an absolute yardstick we can use to determine whether moral actions are good or bad. For an atheist, morality is the practical business of regulating the behaviour of people in society. Personal moral feelings and conscience are part of the mechanism of this practical business. Again this isn't pretend, it's essential to the proper functioning of society.

I didn't express a view about how society should work. Whether it's functional or dysfunctional, morality is the mechanism that regulates the behaviour of individuals towards each other.

Well, if it doesn't matter if society is functional or dysfunctional, I don't see the point you're making. If it doesn't matter, why bother with morality?

All my thinking is subjective whether it's about mathematics, blondes or brunettes.

A subjective belief is one that has no logical basis. An objective belief does have a logical basis, even if the basis is not totally certain (induction).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by JavaMan, posted 04-07-2006 8:55 AM JavaMan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by nwr, posted 04-07-2006 12:25 PM robinrohan has responded

nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 134 of 301 (301995)
04-07-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-05-2006 8:19 AM


Crisis of non-Faith
Is robinrohan having a crisis of non-Faith :(
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 04-05-2006 8:19 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 301 (301996)
04-07-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
04-07-2006 12:10 PM


Re: Then why this thread?
And if you agree with it, then why a thread called "The Case Against the Existence of God?"

Because I am not trying to affect whether God exists or not. I am trying to find out if he does in fact exist or not. My knowing or not knowing will not affect the status of His existence in any way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 12:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 12:31 PM robinrohan has responded

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