Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

The difference is that the Bible does not EXHORT THE READER TO VIOLENCE, but merely reports on historical calls to JUSTICE that are CLEARLY in the past, while the New Testament calls Christians AGAINST any kind of violence, even to dying oneself instead. Read it, that's what it says. The Koran on the other hand has both peaceful and violent messages in conflict, but clearly preaches violence against unbelievers to be done by your average Muslim, and this is what the fundamentalists go by. They don't make it up. They follow the Koran. The quote I posted of Ayatollah Khomeini Message 12 shows that he derived his exhortations to kill people from the Koran.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

A pure value judgment on your part - one is "violated", whilst the other is "fulfilled". You don't win the argument by playing with verb connotations!The fact is they BOTH contain violence that is open to interpretation.

I'm sorry, you are flat out wrong and making it all up. Read the texts for pete's sake. You don't have a clue.

Why would I make such a thing up?Even a cursory review of history demonstrates repeatedly that both the Koran and the Bible have to been used to inspire acts of violence.Do you seriously deny this?

If you read the texts, Rick, which is ALL I have been talking about, you will see that the Bible does NOT endorse such acts of violence and where it addresses the reader explicitly prohibits them, whereas the Koran actually does address the reader and exhort him to murder the infidel. I think I've been pretty clear in my statements. So that yes violence has been done in the name of both but you cannot equate them because in the one case it is a violation of the religion and in the other it is a fulfilment of the religion, and this you would know if you read the texts.

"But God will shatter the heads of his enemies..." Psalms 68:21"...they have rejected the word of the Lord, and what wisdom is in them? Therefore I will give their wives to others..." Jeremiah 8:9"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun." Samuel 12:11"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
Isaiah 13:9, 13:15'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'" Ezekiel 9:5"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." Matthew 13:49---------------Just a tiny selection..Of course these are mostly OT, but then many Christians see the OT as an important part of the faith, especially creationist literalists...

This is for both Rick and Faith.Faith is 100% correct Rick in saying that the Bible does not endorse continued violence while the Koran does. As I said in the beginning of this thread I feel trying to draw comparisons between Christianity and Islam with this regard is the most futile form of argument because they are very different. Christiantly also CHANGED with the new testament. It is part of the doctrine even though some Christians choose to cherry pick parts of the old testament to justify radical behavior.Where faith is totally wrong though is in her calim that the Koran's justification for continued violence is anything other than a mandate allowing you to protect youself from attack. In context the war verses can only be interpreted by a reasonable person as being defensive. It gets subjective when certain sects of Islam change the meaning of "defensive" to basically mean they can war against anything, like what is going on in Sudan, but the verses themselves do not change.Faith and others on her side of the fence feel that they have demonstrated that the war verses are a call to religious imperialism. In fact the issue has never been settled and like many issues we talk about on this board will probably never be settled. But they feel that they can continue to use it as a talking point as if the issue HAD been settled. If you bring this up then you are "..decieved even though we continually showed you the truth...". Pure rhetoric.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

How does that answer anything I said about the Bible's NOT EXHORTING THE READER to violence, huh? Those quotes refer to actions by God or angels, or specific instances in history. There is plenty of violence in life, and God certainly exacts some harsh punishments, but that is not the subject here. The subject is actions by HUMAN BEINGS, and where they get their inspiration. And it is very clear that a believer can't get inspired to violence from the Bible, though a Muslim can from the Koran.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

"Slay a Jew wherever you find him" is very clearly not a call to DEFENSIVE action.

And that is from exactly which verse in the Qur'an?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree with Jar. I don't remember reading that in my version of the Koran.Perhaps you could give the preceeding and subsequent 3-4 verses with that also.Thanks for backing up your claims in advance.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)?Admittedly I've met a lot more Jews than witches, but this still seems to be along the same lines.TTFN,WK

Quote mining the Bible may not help show how Faith and others are quote mining the Koran. It does to me but it seems to only have the effect of infuriating them in their case. There are other means to destroy their obviously weak position then simply turning around and using the same fallacy against them.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Clearly these Muslims aren't actually Muslims any more than the Christians who committed atrocities (yet claimed they were Christians) were Christians. If no true Christian commits atrocities then no true Muslim does either.See the bind? According to a non-Muslim's interpretation. An non-christian might say that the Christian texts are not violated but fulfilled by violence...but you would suggest that since they are not Christians they don't understand the Bible etc.The same argument works both ways.In short: Many Muslims condemn terrorism and say that it is a corruption and perversion of Scripture. So either:1) The Muslims you mentioned are not true Muslims (like violent Christians aren't true Christians) and the ones I mention are.2) The Muslims you mentioned are true Muslims and the ones I mention aren't.3) They are both true Muslims.As a non-Muslim who has not had the grace of Allah open your eyes to the holiness of the Qu'ranic scripture...how can you assign yourself as a judge as to who is a True Muslim and who isn't? You can't - or if you can, then non-Christians are able to judge who is a True Christian and who is not, and you find yourself in a twist because then Christianity can be claimed to be violent. I'm equating the argument of no true Christian to the argument of no true Muslim. I never mentioned their history was the same. And it certainly wouldn't be politically correct to do so, since politically correct things are designed to cause no offense whereas such a comment is very likely to cause offense.

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http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/2002/1011/epf504.htm Spanish Muslims decry Al Qaeda - CSMonitor.com 403 Forbidden

Which is standard fare for any 'self defense' scenario. The person who aggresses will always claim it was in self defense. Famously and recently the Iraq war comes to mind. The claim was that we attacked them because they were trying to get weapons to attack us with. Justified or not, it's the same kind of reasoning that extremists use all over.I suppose it is possible to justify killing everybody using the Bible as a guide. You can't murder, but plenty of 'true christians' have gone to war and killed. Why? Because they were fighting evil. If evil is sin and we are all sinners, all killing is justified.Obviously this requires twisting the text, which is precisely what Islamic extremist leaders do. Their version is more polished and convincing of course, otherwise it wouldn't stick.