Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

Support this or retract it please.I have been to a number of mosques where there is no Wahabbi influence. In fact NO mosque that I have ever been to has been that way. I am not saying you are wrong. It is just that I HIGHLY doubt that you are correct and would like to see what kind of information led you take such a position.I mean it is such a rediculous one to hold by default. You MUST have a reason.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I didn't say literal words, I said literal reading - where context is important. Otherwise we can easily indict Christians as violent on the basis that their book tells them to stone women and children to death. That's hardly inciting people to kill Jews or engage in terrorism. The bible too condemns unbelievers.

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Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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That is not Surah 98:6.

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YUSUFALI: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.

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That is. I couldn't find anywhere that recommends 'no mercy'. Is incomplete. If we look at what it is talking about we find discussions of taking prisoners and letting them free as a favour or ransoming them (not cutting off their heads). We also find that smiting of the unbelievers only during war.

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(As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
He will guide them and improve their condition.
And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.

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see Message 78 for how that elipses skips an important mercy clause (that is - don't be friends with them, and if they leave so be it. If they come back, kill them). And its not unbelievers - its people that try and make Muslims disbelieve (They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved). ...so be careful when you turn your back on them in prayer. Indeed, its probably wise to keep pray short when near those that are enemies lest they take advantage.

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And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

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So yeah, once again I say - where in the Qu'ran does it justify terrorism...or are such interpretations made by those who would incite Muslims to violence or discredit Islam?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This might be a bit of a quote-mine but I don't see how you can type that it has nothing to do with the religion itself, which is the source of the misinterpretations that support terrorism. I mean, do you think there could be a Buddhist terrorist?I just don't think that it has nothing to do with the religion. The terrorists are muslims and are making that well known, it has to have something to do with their religion.

So terrorists are muslim? Do you remember the incident seen above? How about this one? or this one?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

To clarify, the religion does not cause or prescribe the terrorism or genocide.YES the terrorists do USE the religion as justification. Faith seems to think that we are ignoring that for some reason. I don't think anyone has been denying that. It is just not the default position of the religion to do those things as can be demonstrated by the text and actions of mainline Moslems.Obviously the anti-Islam folk disagree with me but they have an axe to gring against Islam. Right now Islam is in the news-light and those involved in the triangle of mutual hate between the Abrahamic faiths like to take any opportunity they can to distinguish their particular worship of the one true God. Many Moslems do the exact same thing that Faith and company are doing here pointing to the "vile decadence" of the Christian West as a defining element of THAT religion.

Is that really relevant, though?Why do so many well-meaning progressives rush to defend Islam? Do you really think that Muslims are largely any more tolerant of gays and atheists and evolutionists than the Christians largely are?The assertions of Faith and others that Islam's text is militaristic and suggests violence against the foes of Islam seem to be largely correct. Who cares what the stupid Bible says?

At least in my case I don't mean to defend Islam. I am no Moslem and I am certainly not for the kind of conservatism and anti-democratic tendencies of the religion. But if people like rand, Faith, CS, buz, etc want to sit there and condemn a worldview based on misinformation then they should expect to be met with a challange. It doesn't matter if we are talking about evolution and their source of misinformation is AIG or we are talking about Islam and their source of misinformation is whatever fundie hate site/books they get this shit from. The point is simply that their position is wrong. I agree with this for the most part. Referencing the Bible in this situation is irrelevant. The whole issue under debate is how far "suggests violence against the foes of Islam" extends, what does the source of that philosophy actually mean, and what that means for the religion as a whole.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Could we please put this false idea to rest? I argue as I do because of what I've learned about Islam, not because of some preconceived idea about Islam. I have no axe to grind against Islam. If it were a peaceable religion I would be happy to acknowledge it and applaud it and locate the terrorism elsewhere. But what I have read about it over the last six or seven years says otherwise, exposes its teachings and its violent history as all of a piece, and the interpretation of its writings that leads to terrorism as inherent and ineradicable. If you think you can separate terrorism from the teachings, why can't the terrorists? They are absolutely convinced that they are obeying Allah, and it looks to me like they have good reason to think so. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Actually I agree with the Muslims that the West is rotten with "vile decadence" - I think God sees it the same way. But otherwise you are making up this interpretation of things out of whole cloth. You simply refuse to believe that we critics of Islam are being objective and honest, rather than prosecuting some nasty subjective need to put down a rival. You have no basis for it. What you are saying here is the subjective stuff, based on some need of your own I suppose, which you are projecting on your opponents. It's a form of ad hominem, dismissing the argument on the basis of some made-up motivation you project onto the arguer.Islam is not enough in the news-light it seems to me. The media seem to be in a conspiracy to keep us from knowing how this or that violent event was caused by jihadic Muslims following Allah.

This is sheer nonsense. Nobody is going to make up suicidal missions out of some kind of supposedly innate hating personality. These terrorists are created by the jihadic teachings of Islam.90% of your "argument" has been personal attack Jazz. Get off your high horse. You aren't God and your oh so certain interpretations of people's motives, including the terrorists' have no basis in anything but your own jaundiced imagination. Try facts for a change. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I was typing about specific terrorists, you know...the ones having a Jihad. Obviously not all terrorists are muslims and I wasn't generalising like you made me out to be.

That is a matter of interpretation of the religion. I would say that for some of the terrorists, the religion did cause or prescribe it. They'd just be wrong about the religion, if it actually didn't. Still though, the religion has something to do with it. Well, the actions of the mainline muslims aren't in the spotlight like the terrorists actions are so it can be hard to tell sometimes. The demonstations of the texts are not absolutely clear. Ever consider that your intepretation is wrong and the terrorist's is right? I'm not here to bash Islam, from what I do know about it, it looks like a decent religion. Why do you spell it like that?Why do others spell is muslim?

Definitly and that happens in lots of circumstances with the media. The same thing happens against Christianity when only the Robertsons and Fallwells of the world make the news. Yes I have very much so. My standard methodolgy for approaching these types of situations is to examine the evidence and come to a conclusion based on that evidence. In this case I have read the Koran and the verses being discussed and in the context of the passages I can in no way see them as calls to religious imperialism. I have heard the arguments from the other side but all I see is them taking those quotes and removing all the surrounding context to produce their conclusion. If they have some OTHER kind of convincing argument about why I should accept their interpretation over mine, which also happens to be the mainstream one, then they have yet to present it.Moslem, Muslim . vowels in the language are sort of flexible. My name can be spelled interchanging the vowels and they are all acceptable versions. Some consanants also translate weird which is why you will see Koran and Quran. There is a phonetic in arabic roughly equivalent to a KAW sound that has no representation in english. The closest are K and Q.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

What history do you subscribe to? People do this all the time and don't need religious reasons to do so. In fact most mainstream Moslems believe that suicide is a sin just like Christianity does. They believe that suicide bombers go straight to hell. They certainly are encouraged by them yes. There is enough context in the Koran that leaders can twist in order to convince their minions that it isn't "really" suicide. I never said that these people don't use the Koran to justify their actions. But it is a bastardization of the Koran as can be plainly seen in the text given a literal reading. It seems as though you have moved your argument from, "The Koran prescribes these actions" to, "The terrorists use the Koran to justify these actions". I have never disagreed with the latter. We will let the reader decide who is attacking what. You have the gall to sit here in a public forum and proclaim that millions of Moslems are incorrectly interpreting their religion based off of quote mined snippits of the Koran that you can't even be bothered to reproduce and you say that I am on a high horse? I suppose no one is immune from putting a little bit of personal insult into the debate eh. It is just quite hypocritical of you to blast me for guessing at your motives, calling foul for personal attacks, and then turn right around and do straight back to me. I never claimed any civility on this one. We have far to much history over these issues to give a damn about respecting your position. I find your opinions on this disgusting. I have. I have produced the war verses. Myself and others have shown them in their full context. I have called you and your supporters out on their position which relies on quote mining the Koran. I have even asked you to produce the so called "kill all the Jews" quote that you continually claimed was good evidence for your position. Here we are and there are people who have brought facts to the table and people like you who have not.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Yes, I have read a LOT of information on the subject, much of it from Muslim sources and ex-Muslim sources, people who should know, and this is the conclusion I have arrived at, fairly and honestly. It is not some axe I have to grind, not some personal need of mine to find Islam at fault, it is an objective conclusion I have come to from my reading, and your insinuations about your opponents' motives are improper debate. Deal with the issues only. I admit I haven't put up enough evidence, but that doesn't give you an excuse to attack me personally and claim to know my motives with such certainty as you do. I'll get to the evidence eventually if it seems worth it, but we've been here before and YOUR prejudices are the problem. In this atmosphere digging up links and quotes is often just a lot of work to no purpose. Evidence doesn't mean a thing to anybody here really, the best evidence is treated like dirt if it's on the fundie side.There is nothing INHERENTLY FALSE about the idea that millions of people could be wrong!!Edited by Faith, : No reason given.