Is morality absolute or relative?

If you say so. You say you haven't seen the perfect society yet huh?Well when you do it will have perfect people in it... Our shortcomings in my mind are so far from perfection that in that light we are pure evil...Heaven will be heaven because it is perfect. And we have to be perfect to get there. That's why we need Jesus, because He was perfect.

Because if morality exists, then we are all rightly condemned and in need of mercy.Except for you jar. I don't think God expects Orangutans to act Human in the Godly sense.

Thanks for getting things back on philosophical ground. That is an 'excellent' question but it is kind of like trying to prove our existence. Descartes said 'I think therfore I am', but in the end it proves nothing. Instead what we do is ask, 'can I deny my existence?'
Not without affirming it! So the contradiction points to the truth.How can morality be absolute? Because without it, life would destroy itself. And that owuldn't be wrong... just total chaos.Morality suggests the opposite.. that life is ordered and therfore eternal.

I forgive you for not seeing this... have you heard of WAR? let me go into more detail...Perhaps if we ask the right questions, we can follow all of this to the truth.For now, let's talk about the notion of 'absolute truth'. I contend that 'absolute truths' exist. I would now like to suggest from where those truths must come. If this entir triggers your defense mechanisms, then you no doubt find yourself thinking, "There are no absolute truths". Just remember that's a contradiction. If it were true, then it would be an absolute truth. Argue if you must, but this all boils down to our choice of perspective. Is the glass half full or half empty? Perhaps in light of what's been covered so far, you'll indulge me a little longer, even if only for your own entertainment. Are we having fun?If morality exists, it is a perfect example of absolute truth. Many have suggested that we each have our own truths or own morals. Can you see the distinction between the concept of 'own' truths, vs. 'universal and absolute'?The fact is, there is no such thing as morality; unless, you assume a creator. If that creator exists, then his laws are supreme and sovereign and are not 'ours', we can only submit to them or adopt them. They are certainly not relative if they are a natural 'law'. If that creator exists, and we say to someone that their actions are immoral as per the natural order (creator), then we are only telling the truth. It is not an imposition. They are free not to abide by them, so how is it imposed? It is the reality of the truth that leaves them feeling violated. Why does the truth hurt? Are we that foreign to it? What is the solution? Can we not say so because we are not perfect? If we were, would we be crucified?This same principle applies if we claim to be God by implication. We will then impose our morality on others for an assumed end that we agree is the best purpose for our existence. Eithr way morality is absolute.Moral relativism is an oxymoron!I have to go for a while, so I don't get divorced (that's a sin you know

That's a very good analysis. Your quite right! They do have absolute morality. They do exactly as they are expected and appear to be content with being what they are.It is only humanity that does not do what it even expects from itself. Which is a curious thing when you think about it. Even men and women who hold a moral code violate it, and are not happy that they do.Perhaps we are trying to be something we are not and should not strive for morality. Perhaps our problem is that we try to be good, but we are really meant to be animals without morals. That is a scary proposition but there are some who imagine such a world and think just that. I doubt any of them seriously forsee the horrors of suchan existence.The other alternative is that the morals we strive for are not found within though they are real. In which case we must look to the source of them if we would like to gain them.They are not ours these morals... No, not any 'real' ones.When Jesus was being patronized and called a good teacher, He gave an interseting reply, "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Mark 10:18)In other words He said, 'do you really know who I claim to be?' He also clearly demonstrated that goodness is not relative but perfect (which is synonomous with 'absolute')Do you see how morality ties in to absolutes and perfection? Either that or we are kidding ourselves and the people we call 'the most depraved' among us, are in reality as Rob Zombie said, 'More Human than You Man'...

We're gonna go deep here so let me entertain...God is by definition the only thing that is absolute! So anything that is His, such as law would also be absolute. Now if we hijack that law and claim it to be law, we may imply sovereignty but miss the mark (sin).Truth would only be a part of HIM. A dimension of Him. We could call truth His Son if that Son came into time. Since Jesus claimed to be the truth, I think we can at least appriciate the incredible handle on logic that He posessed.Absolute truth is what we operate on. We get out of bed in the morning because we believe we must do so. Regardless of whether our assumped truth is in fact real, the fact of the matter is that 'truth' is the most base fuel of man.So if we say that evolution is true, we imply that it is absolutely true!It is not difficult really, these are just not the kind of assumptions that rise above our subconscious without some irritating probing by some mystical spell weaver...Morality and truth are transcendant... That is why naturalists have a difficult time understanding them. Because their starting assumptions are immediately violated or exposed (depending on your perspective). Which one is true?The absolute one!

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Any biters in the stream?

Sorry jar, you must have missed the answer to this question on page one of the thread. Message number 11.1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.2. You shall not make a graven image.3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.4. You shall not break the Sabbath.5. You shall not dishonor your parents.6. You shall not murder.7. You shall not commit adultery8. You shall not steal.9. You shall not commit perjury.10. You shall not covet.Anything absolute must come from God, because by definition He is the only thing 'outside' of this relative universe.

I'm sorry nwr, just having fun. Personally I would laugh if someone called me a toothless drunk. But then again, it's not true either!What I actually said in response to...was this...

Okay, perhaps I can get the idea accross this way. if everything you said above is true... it is absolutely true!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

jar... Do you acknowledge that absolute truth exists?

jar... Do you acknowledge that absolute truth exists?

I think you miss the point guys... morals and law are actually synonomous. Let me put it to you this way. You can disagree and say that it is only my opinion, but then you really only prove that that is because the truth is not relative... my opinion and yours is irrelavant. The truth speaks for itself. Consider carefully:

Very nice! So your saying that everything you just said is not necessarily true? But that, with what you almost know with certainty, you will bank on? Is that a fair assesment?If so, Since you lack certainty and my Lord spoke with fire and claimed to be certainty, i'm gonna bank on Him. Because if your right, I got nothing to lose but this stinking life. If He's right, i got all of eternity to pay for denying what was the most obvious to me... That I am indeed a sick man in need of a healer.

This is unbelievable! Is it that difficult to see the point.... I did not say that a speed limit sign is absolutely true... I am saying that it implies that it is, and that's why the law breaker hates it so much...It is precisely why you hate the ten commandments.. because you are a liar, an adulterer, a God hater, and otherwise insulant arrogant bastard like the rest of us...

Thanks for playing Crash. I missed you man...It's better for everyone??? My GOd in heaven if that's not an assumed absolute then I never saw one...Do you guys really ever examine your thinking? Is it that hard to see what I'm saying?