The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.

That being, using only the sparse detail available to us from the NT and OT themselves, a certainly immovable and probably disk-shaped Earth that has Sun, Moon, and stars circling it once daily. The top "heaven" is straight up "above" the "circle of the Earth."Not a terribly good reflection of reality.

1. I'm familiar with the "circle of the earth." The Hebrew word for "circle" could indicate either a sphere or a flat circle, depending on context as the reader would see fit to render it.2. In Proverbs 8:27 this same word is used referring to the circular horizon of the ocean. In this verse the "circle of the face of the deep" uses the same word As Isaiah 40:22. In Proverbs it refers to the circular horizon of the ocean, not a flat earth.3. The Isaiah 40:22 context is from God's perspective where the heavens are depicted as a tent (not flat) over the earth.4. From God's perspective from the heavens earth would have a circular shape as the sun and moon are to us, appearing as a disc. The shape of the moon as we see it could be correctly said to be round. You paint a disc/circle if you paint the moon on an artist's canvas.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

the only thing I'm going to say is about this: utterly wrong. The only radioactive dating I'm aware of that even has a thing to do with the atmosphere is C14-dating, and only because a main source of carbon is from carbon dioxide.The layers inthe atmosphere don't have a purpose per se.The reason they take on those characteristics has to deal with the mass of each layer, their temperature, and some other variables. tell me, does a solid have a purpose? or is it merely the result of "cold" atoms?ABE:
I just realized that you might be mistaking "characteristics" for "purpose". most of what you listed as "purposes" of the layers are actually there characteristics. The other stuff (except for the religious junk in there) might be called "emergent properties". why does such a layer protect against UV rays? because of the ozone (O3, not O2) there. That's an emergent property. Not a purpose.Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

In Revelation 4, the description is likely of older human like creatures having on garments sitting on thrones. It is also likely of real beast like creatures. The writer must describe these creatures in some terms that humans reading it would get some idea of the appearance of them. Note the word "like," which indicates calf like face of one did not actually have a calf head on it but that the shape of it's head was calf-like and so on with the other beasts with the exception that one's face actually looked like a man's face.The human like creatures evidently had God's image (shape/look) as did the man Adam whom God created and from whom we all were procreated.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Of course if an intelligent designer as per the Biblical record designed the atmosphere he would design it with purpose in mind. His purpose would be to prepare a planet suitable for the creatures and plants, et al which intended to live and propagate in it. He knew, for example that some provision must be installed in the atmosphere to effectively protect the earth from millions of meteors.Secular science must account for millions of systems pertaining to earth and life so as for the ecosystem of the earth and it's inhabitants to dwell. Of course, mainline science thinks it all, including the wonders of such things as DNA just all came about without a designer. You people surely have a lot on your plate to esplain. It boggles my mind that such intelligent folks can even imagine such a possibility that everything observed began via random processes and managed to come about without the design, oversight and work of an intelligent being having enough wisdom, knowledge and power to make it happen.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

buz, you oughta know by now that the weakest argument is that of incredulity. just because you can not imagine it so does not mean it is so.the other main problem with your argument--you think the world was created for us (in the general sense, being life). It wasn't. It was just made. And not by purely random processes either.secular science does not have much to explain (in terms of your objections, i would say). only your imagination is lacking.

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My understanding of BB theory is that there was no area outside of it for anything to exist, including God. God would have had to be both in and outside of the BB from which time and space emerged. Thus God would not be like he is today or be eternal. He would be inclusive in a submicroscopic particle of space along with the entire energy of the universe. This, obviously, is not the God depicted in scriptures. Your house/yard analogy implies that God would exist both in and out of the BB. Your problem is that unlike your house and yard, the BB allegedly had no area outside of it nor before it.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

How would you know?This is a serious question. It's clear to me that you have no knowledge of geoscience from your previous posts. Have you studied biology, astrophysics, or chemistry? Have you even read one freshman college level textbook on any of the subjects listed above?I have read the Bible, that's why I know better than to argue over details in the Bible with experts without doing my homework first.Do you do your homework before pronouncing absolute and total knowledge over virtually all experts in the natural sciences?After all, libraries are free Buz. Any lack of comprehension may be due to lack of effort.

Kerusu, are you asking Buz to have faith in what cannot yet be seen? Oh that's rich...It reminds me of a scientist explaining design very well (IMO) and explaining that the design arguments are based on what we do know, where as arguments like naturalism are based upon what we don't know.And I must say that that is very humerous to me, since it is the naturalists who like to dismiss ID'ers as all faith and make believe.And it pertains to a debate that I promised Razd that I would share with him soon. I think I'll spend some time with the family tonight first. I am laughing too hard to feel like doing the digging at the moment. I only remember that the naturalist in question, went by the name of Schapiro, and that he was debating a man from Texas A&M.Oh that's rich...

rob, i was asking him to use his imagination. that's not faith.if I cannot imagine the existence of a God, does that mean he does not exist? of course not. just because you can't see how something works doesn't mean that it only works how you think it does.if anything, I ask him to actually study up on science and see what it does say and how we know the things we know. i don't want him to take my word for it. granted, this requires effort on his (and your part), and something tells me you won't put any effort into this.

Nevermind God's perspective. If He is omniscient and the creator of all, he will know the shape of the earth regardless of the angle He sees it from You are still sounding as if the 'heavens' is some place far up in the sky, when in reality we have no idea where God abides.

I am 36 years old Kuresu. You have no idea what struggles and issues I have faced in my time. And you appear to know little about effort and objective thinking. I have been married 14 yrs, have three kids. Bought and pay for my own home. A self made man if there is such a thing (I once believed so). A living American dream! I have been a liberal frying my brain on LSD at Reaggae on The River in Southern Humboldt County. Been a card carrying member of the Republican Party. I have searched High, and I have searched low. I have believed lies and told them with zeal. I've been around the block. I did it my way. I pondered the riches of pantheism, and I rattled the rafters of atheism. I've seen through the lens of cocaine, and the lens of depression. Considered suicide, and traveled through the clouds of heaven. I questioned my teachers, and the priest who married me to my beautiful wife. I even told him how LSD had freed my mind in ways he would never understand. I've been at ease in the woods hauling logs with a the meanest bunch of tobbacco chewing rednecks you've ever seen. And I've always wondered if there was more. More, more, more, more...I had no idea how much more there is until I met Christ! and it was far from the easiest thing I have done. It was the hardest, most humiliating, challenging, and pride robbing journey of them all. So please refrain from sitting in your dorm room and telling me about putting out an effort. My whole life has been effort. I could take you for a ride in the muddy mountains of Humboldt in a Peterbuilt that would likely cause a loss of continance on your part.Now where was I?It requires more than an imagination. It requieres an honest interpretation of the evidence. But you don't even think dishonesty is a sin... it's just a mistake!This is what you sound like Kuresu: I am a man Kuresu. A man who will be coming back on the clouds with Jesus Christ to destroy armies at the battle of Armageddon.Don't forget, that until two years ago, I fully defended evolutionary views even after my conversion. I was a vociferous defender of theistic evolution. It was a former college proffessor that reigned in my confidence about what I had been told by the establishment. I have loved science since 7th grade biology. And believed it as scientific fact. Over the years I bored my poor wife to tears with the Discovery Channel, National Geographic, and the like.Have you ever noticed how many times they reinforce the whole 'billions of years' belief. I garantee it is in every single, solitary documentary out there minus none! Josef Goebles must be proud...Don't assume that I am an imbecil. Nor lazy, or incompetant, or simple, or wimpy, or amused.My biggest failure is in learning to be as good a father as the Lord is to me... And now I am crying. I'm strong enough to admit it too.Where was I?Oh yes... I fully bought into the evolutionary view. I was steeped in it. Fed it. Bred it. Reinforced with it. Surrounded by it. Force fed it. Taught it. Saw it on TV (and today... that's the main thing ).I heard about it. Talked about it. Defended it. Explained it. Swallowed it. Inhaled it. Sat on it. Stood on it. Swam in it. Danced with it. Touched it. Sold it... And as Bubba would say before Forest left him in Viet Nam... 'That's about it...'.The pressure is incidious! It sorrounds us. It is our culture now. It glares with a nueronic stare and dares you to question it's authority! Everybody knows that science cannot be wrong...Iceage talked about believing what we were raised to believe in another thread. He accused me of being gulible by implication. That we usually buy into our cultures myths and legends. He is so right! But not in the way he suspects. It's quite the other way around.Rebel! Run! Don't even go back for your things Kuresu... Get out of Dodge! And pray that your flight does not take place in winter.Don't be cowed by the pressures of the day. Question authority!
That's my counsel...But, if you find yourself comforted by the whole naturalist view, then that is another matter!All I know is that you can count me out... Naturalism just cannot answer the many questions that life brings to the table. It's only benefit to me was that it allowed me to live however I chose at the time.When I realized that was why I believed it, the enchantment began to fade. I just had to come to terms with my moral depravity first. One cannot see clearly until one is honset internally. I think that is why Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. It is our conscious.Once we quit lying to ourselves, we can then start interpreting all of the data objectively for the first time.Then, as Dean Kenyon (professor of biology emeritus S.F. State University) said, '...the concept of intelligent design was far more intellectually satisfying. And matched very closely the multiple discoveries of molecular biology in the last decades.'Now I am going to go watch 'The Gospel of John' with my family. We've seen it before but it is good! The boys are going to need both sides of the story so that someday they can decide for themselves what the truth is.My apologies for the first draft of this reply. That was the old me talking. I hope that this edited version has less of me, and more of Christ in it. I do not think you are any more a punk than I am. And none of us really is. We just act like punks from time to time. Well, at least I do...I wish you well Kuresu. May you find the truth.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : Idiocy edit...

Are you sure you don't still have a lot of that pride hanging about?Also, have you ever gotten around to reading those forum guidelines yet?Edited by anglagard, : Subtitle

Paul does speak of a 'third heaven' but nowhere says how many heavens there are. He didn't have to because his contemporaries already knew.According to the model of the cosmos that prevailed in Paul's day (and in many centuries before and after), the planets occupied seven heavens. Beyond this lay the fixed stars, the angels, and the throne of God.The third heaven was the sphere of Venus. [See chart, Message 42]Paul of Tarsus would have attached no significance to the Roman association of this planet with a goddess. The Jews recognized this planet as the brightest star in the sky, the herald of both daybreak and nightfall. They called it by its most ancient name: 'the morning and the evening star.'Sound familiar?The Morning and the Evening Star is one of the titles given to Christ in the Book of Revelation. Paul's mystical ascent to the third rung of the heavenly ladder would signify a special encounter with this being.Ascending the ladder to this third heaven also has the effect of placing one just short of the sun itself. An exalted perch--and as high as any mortal could expect to ascend in the flesh.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Wow...? No one cares about your life... are you proud of doing drugs... I bet I can match you on that! You do not have to put down kuresu... its childish, and furthermore... what you write is boring... it hurts my eyes... Be nice, or you will become hitler
Plus... you take yourself too seriously... dont you have kids or wife or something? I know this is debate but grow up!Edited by Nyeusigrube, : No reason given.