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Author | Topic: Immigration issues | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5903 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
By the way, you do realize that farmers use the money they get from fair trade to buy chainsaws, right? To clear more rainforest? So they can live more like we do? Although I know this is highly off-topic, I'm afraid I've got to call you on this one. This is simply not the case. FTA's - especially the environmental protocols attached to them - are, in fact, designed to engender the opposite effect. Please either retract or substantiate this statement. If you would care to propose a topic inre the effects of FTA's on the developing world, I'd be happy to join you there.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
They pay sales taxes. They pay real estate taxes. They pay taxes for electricity. They pay taxes for telephone service. Because these are included in the price of what ever they are trying to purchase. Pretty much no one can get around that. Its not exactly a virtue to pay a sales tax.
Would it really be all that difficult for you to admit you misspoke, and that what you meant to say was that they don't pay income taxes? When somebody says "paying your taxes" they are invariably speaking about state and federal taxes that they have to file each year. This is when people get audited, when fines are issued, when prison sentences are carried out because people have either evaded their obligation or they have manipulated the figures in an attempt to trick the IRS. I didn't misspeak. I very clearly said that illegal aliens don't pay in to the services that legal people do. What services do you get for including a two dollar increase on a shirt that costs thirty dollars? Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. The consumer is basically paying what that store owes on its taxes. And that's something that is unavoidable because its included automatically. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: Ten seconds on google before you speak would make you sound a lot less ridiculous. Way to completely manipulate the context. We're talking about consumers that have an illegal resident status, not the owners of business. When you, as the consumer pay a sales tax, that money is not the property of the store owner, its the property of the Federal government. If the owner of the store pockets that money that is rightfully the government's, they will likely go to prison. Since we are clearly talking about illegal immigrants as the consumer, your link bears no reflection, whatsoever, to the story. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, what does the taxes that the store has to pay go towards? Does it go towards the roads, the schools, the hospitals?
quote: The point is, there is a lot of tax that illegas pay. When people like you say "they don't pay taxes", you never make exceptions or say, "they never pay XX taxes, but they do pay XX taxes". You mean to say that they don't ever pay any. And that is completely false.
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alacrity fitzhugh Member (Idle past 4319 days) Posts: 194 Joined: |
Nemesis_juggernaut:
In 1996 the IRS started issuing Identification numbers that illegal immigrants started using to pay federal taxKnight Ridder/Tribune News Service May 1, 2006quote: They also buy packages with fake ids and social security numbers. The part of their wages that go to fica and medicare are under false numbers an placed in the 'Earning Suspense File'quote:read-Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions six(sic)six
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I didn't misspeak. I very clearly said that illegal aliens don't pay in to the services that legal people do. What services do you get for including a two dollar increase on a shirt that costs thirty dollars? Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. Again with the total falsehoods. The illegals DO pay to fund roads, and hospitals and social services. Do they buy gas? If so then they pay State, Federal and Local gas tax. They pay property taxes. They pay school assessments. They pay sales tax. They pay use taxes. They pay tolls. They pay excise taxes. And, as point out in Message 70, they pay State and Federal Income Tax. nemesis, why don't you simply admit that you are wrong? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
When somebody says "paying your taxes" they are invariably speaking about state and federal taxes that they have to file each year. This is when people get audited, when fines are issued, when prison sentences are carried out because people have either evaded their obligation or they have manipulated the figures in an attempt to trick the IRS. I didn't misspeak. I very clearly said that illegal aliens don't pay in to the services that legal people do. Here is the sum total of what you said, and what you were responding to, when this subthread about taxes began:
They are our neighbors--why should we look further, to nations more distant and cultures even more distantly related to our own, for the labor (and taxpayers) we need? Because "illegal" immigrants don't pay taxes. Legal immigrants do, which everyone is all for. Now, if you want to amend your statement to "illegal aliens don't pay into the services that legal people do," that's okay by me. But it's not what you inititally said, no matter how much you wish it was.
What services do you get for including a two dollar increase on a shirt that costs thirty dollars? Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. The consumer is basically paying what that store owes on its taxes. And that's something that is unavoidable because its included automatically. Not necessarily true. Some states, Tennessee being one of them, have no income tax. Most residents of Tennessee pay most of their money into state coffers through sales tax. And as far as I know, any state that has a sales tax puts the money collected from the tax into the general fund. Sales tax is not a substitute for taxes that the store has to pay. When a store collects a sales tax, it is merely acting, in effect, as an agent for the government. The money passes through the store and goes to the state. But the store also pays it's own taxes on any profit it makes. It really sounds like your understanding of sales taxes is grossly in error. Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I feel like Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes (Message 48) is the most wonderful example of the total bankruptcy of thought I have ever read. *shrugs*
Taxes nj. Sales taxes. Use taxes. Property taxes. Excise taxes. Jar, even if you introduced this pittance to the equation, which is so utterly specious, the fact remains that ALL LEGAL AMERICAN citizens HAVE to pay ALL of their taxes. Why, then, do some people get to be REWARDED for breaking the laws, while law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick? It sure would be nice for everyone not to have any deductions on their W-2's, which would make W-4's pointless. Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, Jar. And if you consider things, like sales tax, which is automatically provided at the cash register, paying taxes, I don't know what to tell you. That isn't "paying your taxes."
You yourself note that all is needed is a drivers license and id. What makes you think illegals cannot get either a drivers license or id? And to register a car, you need a bill of sale. That's it. Because to get a drivers license means that you have to provide proof of citizenship and proof of residence. I agree that some aliens have found ways around it, be it forgery or falsified documents, but it isn't legal. And I would even agree that if some illegal immigrants found a way to circumvent the system and became, what appeared to the average person as them being legal, they might then legally pay taxes. But this is the exception, not the rule.
The fact is that many employers simply steal the money. The illegals still pay the taxes, the employer simply keeps the money and does not turn it in to the government. Please substantiate your ad hoc explanation that employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants "deduct" taxes from migrants. They pay them, what, 3 dollars an hour, and then on top of that, deduct taxes? What do they take out? Are these farmers also accountants who keep up with the average taxation laws? When they turn in this money to the government and the government asks who these mystery people are with no social security numbers are, do they tell the government, "oh I hired some illegal aliens. But please, don't say anything to INS." That's absolutely absurd Jar.
Honestly, America has had an immigrant problem since 1607. You can alleviate some of those problems by deporting yourself then. We'll follow your lead boss. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
See Message 70 and Message 81.
Jar, even if you introduced this pittance to the equation, which is so utterly specious, the fact remains that ALL LEGAL AMERICAN citizens HAVE to pay ALL of their taxes. Why, then, do some people get to be REWARDED for breaking the laws, while law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick? First, it is NOT a pittance. Second, how do they get rewarded? Just what supposed benefits do they get that they do not pay for?
Because to get a drivers license means that you have to provide proof of citizenship and proof of residence. Sorry, not yet true. I did not have to prove citizenship to get my driver's license.
Please substantiate your ad hoc explanation that employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants "deduct" taxes from migrants. They pay them, what, 3 dollars an hour, and then on top of that, deduct taxes? What do they take out? Are these farmers also accountants who keep up with the average taxation laws? When they turn in this money to the government and the government asks who these mystery people are with no social security numbers are, do they tell the government, "oh I hired some illegal aliens. But please, don't say anything to INS." That's absolutely absurd Jar. Again with the moving goal posts, pea palming and just plain misrepresentation. First, I said nothing about "knowingly hire illegal immigrants". Second, I have known many examples where those that did knowingly hire illegal aliens did so to cheat them out of ANY wages. When I lived in California, it was not unusual during harvest season to see the great green cars of the INS show up at a farm on Friday. Why Friday? Because it was payday. And the illegals melted into the countryside and so the farmer didn't have to pay them that week. Further, as pointed out to you in Message 70, folk are contributing to FICA and Income Tax in record numbers. Phantom folk. Folk who seem not to exist.
You can alleviate some of those problems by deporting yourself then. We'll follow your lead boss. Yet more nonsense. My folk were already here and settled in 1607. nemesis, the facts are that illegal immigrants pay taxes. The illegals DO pay to fund roads, and hospitals and social services. Do they buy gas? If so then they pay State, Federal and Local gas tax. They pay property taxes. They pay school assessments. They pay sales tax. They pay use taxes. They pay tolls. They pay excise taxes. and as pointed out in Message 70, they pay income, Social Security and even unemployment taxes. To say that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes is simply a falsehood. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2544 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
okay . . .
then shortly after 1492 america has had immigration problems.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
NJ writes: Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, Jar. And if you consider things, like sales tax, which is automatically provided at the cash register, paying taxes, I don't know what to tell you. That isn't "paying your taxes." I think Lewis Carroll may have some perspective here.
quote:
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
But even by the prevailing social definitions, 'Hispanic' isn't a race. brenna, for example, calls it 'several.' i call it several because i'm educated and smart enough to know that all brown people aren't the same. i know that there are still very distinct morphological groups within former tribal areas in central and south america. i know on sight a guatemalan from a chihuahuan even though they are both short and quite brown. but these are all various groups of post-migration russo-assiatic area peoples (or however you would describe amerindians) often mixed with their european and sometimes arabic or african (spain is a funny place) conquerors. just because you are advanced enough to realize that race is really quite nonexistent, does not make it not an issue here. also, just because the term "hispanic" is misused, doesn't mean that there isn't a huge plague of anti-latino sentiment.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
don't forget. the "natives" were immigrants, too.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. The consumer is basically paying what that store owes on its taxes. And that's something that is unavoidable because its included automatically. i really think you need to take some time to learn about how taxes work. companies have to pay taxes from their profits. this is completely unrelated to the sales tax that state governments charges CONSUMERS for the purchase of goods and services. the reason the stores collect sales tax is because it would be completely unenforceable to require people to mail their receipts and a tax payment. florida, for one, does not have a state income tax (as mentioned by several other people). last years' sales tax revenues were over $22 million. this shows the total tax revenue for the 05-06 fiscal year. this is because we have a tourist heavy economy. so, we charge our visitors to pay for our government. we also charge our residents. i believe the tax in my county is 7.5% (some of this is additional local penny taxes for schools and such). everything except fresh food (and lemonade stands) is taxed. btw, here is our new governor's proposed budget. it lists our total operating and fco (whatever that is.) costs for next year at $114.5 billion. hopefully, the whole hurricane stigma that kept our sales tax revenues down last year will wear off and the snowbirds will come back. i never thought i'd say that. let me demonstrate to you the money i might pay to my state and local governments in an average week. i'll include my double-charging phone bill taxes. i am charged $8andchange a month on my cell phone bill for communications tax. twice. two separate precisely equal taxes. i pay almost $17 dollars in telecommunications tax on my $50 cell phone bill. (this does not include sales tax.) i pay 7.5% on every dollar of my monthly budget short of rent and fresh foods. but i'm poor, so my foods tend to be processed, which carry tax. so i just did my budget for the next 7 months, so i'll go find that. so my monthly budget short rent and food is $1200 so i pay $90 a month in sales tax. my rent is $450, so i don't know what portion of that goes to the taxes on the $300k or so house i live in. if i park to go to the beach, i have to pay the meter. i have so much money that i pay directly to the state for my education. so considering that i live around 5000 a year below the poverty line here, and almost anyone who works makes more than i do and thus spends more than i do, my measly 140 a month in non-income taxes is no doubt dwarfed by even the inputs of illegals. also note, i don't have car payments and i don't pay my own insurance. as to income taxes, which you propose being the only "real" form of taxes, minnesota's report on illegal immigration impact said this. Offsetting these costs, there are approximately 8,000 illegal immigrants who file state income taxes to replenish state resources.7 Illegal immigrants also pay taxes by employer withholdings. Because they do not file tax returns, these funds are kept by the state and federal government resulting in “stranded withholdings.” Although some argue that the value of these withholdings is significant, the exact dollar amount attributable to illegal immigrants is unknown. they also say their cost associated with illegals is between $148-$188 million. of course, they include citizen children of undocumented workers, as though somehow these children are less deserving of their american birthright than the children of "real americans" like good, white, baptist, americans from alabama.
the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.
the center for immigration studies says that the illegals would actually cost twice as much or more if they were legal. how funny is that?
- About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.
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alacrity fitzhugh Member (Idle past 4319 days) Posts: 194 Joined: |
Why, then, do some people get to be REWARDED for breaking the laws Maybe you should be more upset at the ones who use loop holes to avoid taxes. You say thisquote:which is automatically provided at payroll before you receive your pay kind of like quote: You first started of sayingquote: jar then stated in msg 45 how you were wrong by naming taxes that illegals pay. you then moved the goalposts in msg 48quote:In the same message you asked quote:That easy to answer . The IRS has a system using an identification number that illegals are using by the millions. You then state quote: Which I showed in msg 70 you are wrong since their buying packages with false IDs and SS cards quote:You seem to not have all the facts. Continuing in msg 48quote:Jar did not I did msg 70 quote:Continuing: You asked quote:which Dan Carrol So happily showed you in msg 50 dan carrol writes: You then moved the goalpost in msg 78 by changing it from (sic) Ever heard of someone going to prison for "sales tax evasion?" to (sic)We're talking about consumers that have an illegal resident status,you said someone( highlighted in red) not illegal. Continuing: Sigh. Ten seconds on google before you speak would make you sound a lot less ridiculous.quote:California the package cost 150 dollars and comes with two forms of ID, an ID card + SS card, simpleIllegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions.To finish with nemesis_juggernaut writes: jar writes: Many companies withhold income taxes and FICA on illegal workers just as they do for a legal worker. Yeah right! So they tell the Federal Government, "Hey, I have a bunch of illegal immigrants working for me, but I just wanted you to know that I've taken the liberty of deducting what I thought should be the deductions you would ordinarily deduct had they been legal." ??? As I have shown-they buy the package go use the fake ID and SS card get the job. The employer then sends in the FICA and Medicare taxes to the IRS. Upon the IRS finding out that it is a bogus number it goes into "earnings suspense file"msg 70quote:So again lets sum it up shall we: Illegals pay taxes when they pay their cable bill, phone bill, electric-gas-water-sewage bills, they pay taxes when they purchase non sales tax exempt merchandise at a grocer/ retailer, they pay property tax through rent, they pay FICA and Medicare tax out of their paychecks by using a fake SS number ( and will never receive credit for this),they pay federal taxes through the system the IRS set up in 1996. So are you know willing to concede you were misinformed? Let us return to the issue raised earlier: Is it racist what the minutemen are doing? Answer these questions 1) Are the minutemen patrolling both theUS/ Canadian border and US/ Mexican border? 2) If not , why? Edited by alacrity fitzhugh, : No reason given. six(sic)six
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