Limits on Abortion

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When somebody dies mysteriously, there is always an autopsy performed

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It doesn't necessarily have to be an autopsy. It can be any type of medical inquiry. But all this is aside from the point because none of these reasons would justify abortion in the event that it was made legal. This is all semantical distraction.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Seriously, what in the world are you talking about? This has nothing to with the conversation. The issue is that you claimed a fetus "forces" itself inside its mother. You say this as if the mother or father had nothing to do with it, but some how the fetus willed itself in to existence. LOL! This coming from a man who is supposed to be pragmatic about nature. Well, this how nature has meted it out. And perhaps its escaped your attention that this is how you got your start in life. Are you here to fault nature and malign it by doing something unnatural and unabashedly anti-Darwin-- the destruction of one's own progeny. If sanity is synonymous with being clueless, then I'll gladly be clueless.Lets see, I believe that upon conception that a brand new human being is procreated. You believe that something that does not yet exist can force itself upon its mother. Who, then, is clueless? I mean, come on RAZD. Just because you don't see anything morally wrong with abortion doesn't mean that you have to ridiculous invectives about an innocent being.Lastly: "If its not a baby, then you aren't pregnant."

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Because you say so? Because you say so? Because you said so? Because you say so? Because you say so? And that's your problem... You don't understand. At 4 weeks a heartbeat is already noticeable on an ultrasound, at 8 weeks the spinal cord and all of the nerves are forming simultaneously with the brain and its nodes, which allows him/her to respond to stimuli. By 12 weeks nothing new develops. The baby simply grows larger and stronger and this trend continues long after birth. The belief that its just an amorphous blob that can feel no pain is is an absurdity, especially when you consider that most women do not even know they are pregnant until a few days after they miss their period. That can be anywhere from a few days to a month.But that's besides the point. The fact that they can or can't feel pain isn't even an issue. If I shot you in the head while you were sleeping, you wouldn't feel a thing. But would it make it right? This weak argument that they cannot feel pain is not only untrue, but its inconsequential. We put down dogs more humanely which is a testament to how far we have degenerated.And this dehumanization process is ridiculous. Does anyone come up to a pregnant woman and say, "Oh, damn... Sorry to hear about getting a parasite." No, they say, "Congratulations!" As well they should be. Nobody asks how far along their amorphous blob is. They want to know how far along your baby is, because that's what they are. Nobody wants to know the sex of an amorphous blob. They want to know the sex of the baby.But you don't really understand any of this because you don't have children. You have no idea what its like to look in to the eyes of your own child and think what would have happened had they been torn limb from limb from negative pressure, burned with high concentrations of saline, aspirated and asphyxiated on amniotic fluid and saline, or to have their limbs and skull crushed by forceps or wrenched from their body. So you have the ability to separate yourself from any kind of emotional understanding. Perhaps you'll think twice if and ever you and your wife conceive and you actually opt to keep your child. I can only only pray that happens for you. Who is trying to take away her autonomy, Crash??? She IS autonomous. If I wanted to walk around murdering people and somebody said that is illegal, could I, in any sense, claim that they were trying to take away my autonomy? LOL! We're all a collocation of cells, Crash. Secondly, no one wants to take away any one's right to privacy. What a pernicious and vile lie perpetrated by the pro-aborts. When somebody abuses a child, it no longer becomes a private matter. And anyone not willing to step up in defense of that child is culpable. They are not bound by any law to do so, but woe to them for not. I assume you are aware that in order to sustain the human race, it is by procreation, which entails pregnancies. Secondly, here are the effects that can be associated with abortion.

• A perforated urinary bladder and/or uterus which can further lead to peritonitus.
• Scar tissue can render the woman, who may not want children now, but does later in life, sterile.
• The probability of an ectopic pregnancy increases by an exorbitant rate.
• Placenta previa and breech deliveries are also more likely which place both mother and child at risk.
• The longest lasting effect is post abortion syndrome where women express terrible guilt over their decision and suffer long bouts of depression.

Your solution to a bad home life is to just kill them? Stultifing. LOL! Why wouldn't a pregnancy be celebrated? Ask your mom how she felt when you were an amorphous blob. Again, I presume that you do realize this is how every single human being had their start, right? What does enjoyment of sex have to do with abortion? *raises hand* Ooh, I know! The answer is: Nothing. More inventions. Yes, please tell me what promiscuity has to do with abortions as opposed to married or faithful partners? I know the answer to that too. The answer is: Nothing. More abortions means less crime? How about, figure out how contraceptives work, plan accordingly, and stop taking out your aggressions and your ineptitude on defenseless children. Harlequin babies are an extreme rarity. But perhaps in an instance where there is little chance for any normal life or where undue pain would be inflicted on the child, I might consider that as another viable reason for an abortion. Afterall, that is the premise of this thread. When are you going to place blame squarely where it is deserving Crash? At what point are you going to realize that the mother and father have everything to do with the life of the child? Why do you search for excuses to take away the obvious fact that the fetus did not and cannot will itself in to existence? I think a father should be a father and not a sperm donor, but that is not a reason to kill a child. There are countless fatherless children, who ideally would be better off with a loving father, but in the absence of such, still find a way to survive. That's no reason to kill them. If the father walks out of the family after he has already established a relationship with, say, a three year old, is that not worse? Should we kill the toddler because she misses her daddy? Nothing is going to unrape that woman and aborting her baby isn't going to erase the horrific memory. Killing the child only serves to make two tragedies. Aside from which, blame the father-- the rapist, not the child. That would be ideal. If there were no abortions, I'm sure we'd all be happy. So why not, then, get to the heart of the matter? Stop blaming the child and start holding people accountable for their actions which will not only hurt them in the long run, but also hurt others. Babies would beg to differ. I beg to differ. LOL! If you cared about women you would urge them to respect life and to accept responsibility. I don't think you realize how connected women are to motherhood, Crash. If you think women skip away with a grin from ear to ear over their abortion, you're seriously deluded. It is a traumatic event, and somebody that actually cares for them, who doesn;t want their money, who is concerned for BOTH her and her baby is waiting to help them.Do you know that in abortion clinics they speak in code? The doctor doesn't say to the nurse, "I've now severed the head and am going to remove the torso." No, they say, "Number one and number two are separate." Why? Because every women has an emotional attachment to her child, even when her common sense is skewed by these peddlers. Why not just say what it is, then? Because she'll back out. She thinks that an amorphous blob is being removed from her uterus, because they don't let her see the ultrasound. The second she does, she's liable to snap back in to reality and change her mind. LOL! Yeah, that's my world Crash. You got me pegged. Sole worth? Yeah, usually when I talk to my wife I just speak in to her vagina. Hang on... A tragedy? Why is it a tragedy, Crash? Its just an amorphous blob-- a collection of cells-- a parasite-- an invader, etc... No, this is your fantasy. Two of my girlfriends have miscarried in my younger days. And this was even back when I advocated abortion. I only did so because I was listening to people much like yourself. Even then I was devastated. My sister also miscarried before she had her two children. Never in there did we expect abortion. How would you know since you claim there is no way of knowing whether the miscarriage was intentional or not? LOL! I had sex two nights ago and the time of my life. I can tell you all about it if you'd like. can come and talk to me or any one else about how to handle the situation that is going to best for her own solidarity and that of her child's. Your world is a carnival of conspiracy as you have completed invented scenarios about me just because, heaven forbid, that I care about BOTH mother and child. You presume to know much about me, Crash, but your tirade only serves to confirm that you believe what you want to believe, because hating me makes it easier to deal with my rationale discourse.If you really want to know about who I am, just ask. I'm straight up. You don't need to jeer and mock in order to get your point across. I understand your position very well... better than you give me credit for. I've been on both sides of the fence. But you have no idea what this really entails. And if and when you have children of your own, you won't look at it the same way. It hits you like a ton of bricks.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

All of which was their choice in most cases, good sir. No one forced them to get pregnant and no one forced them to shove sharp objects inside their cervix. So if you don't mind, please spare me the sympathetic hyperbole of the "horrors" of back alley abortions as if it were justification for the horrors of abortion.Every one can empathize with a scared young woman who has potentially hindered all of her plans. I get that part. The part that gets hazy for me is how someone can be so self-absorbed to actually murder their own child because of something that they are, at least in part, the causation for in the first place.We like to think about sex as having no strings attached. Its enjoyable, so do it, kind of mentality. Morals aside, its history that tells us that sex has a tremendous responsibility. And should we view it flippantly, it proves that for every action, there is a reaction. Why are we surprised when the consequences come to light?I've said it before in other threads, and I'll say it again in this one. Why not an adoption? I mean, that alleviates and absolves the mother of responsibility, yet she ends up doing the far more honorable, decent, and moral thing-- which is to allow an innocent the right to live as we do. This also gives a couple who can't conceive the chance to love a child the way the child deserves in a loving, symbiotic relationship the way families were designed to do. The birth mother is happy, the child will surely be happy, and the adopting parents are happy. In this scenario, its a win-win-win situation. With abortion, only the once prospective mother gets her way.What say you?

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

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Secondly, you've neglected to relay any information about what happens in countries that criminalize abortion.

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We were speaking about punitive measures in countries where abortion is illegal for those who attempt to conduct an abortion themselves. What we weren't talking about is the danger of trying to conduct your own abortion.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

Its not about extinction, Doc, its about nature. This is how we all got our start in life. You can't say, as RAZD did, that babies force themselves upon their mothers when nature is just doing what it does. Are you going to fault the fetus for doing nothing of its own volition-- either existing or deriving its nutrients from his/her mother?

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

You're right, it certainly is irrational. I don't know how to explain their behavior. The only way to understand it is that I suspect they get so rabid about the whole thing because in the dusty recesses of their psyche, they know damn well that they're wrong and it hurts. Like I said, I suspect that there is a battle warring within their own conscience. I remember a Time magazine had an article about this about three or four years ago. The picture was worth a thousand words. Apparently this doctor was performing preemptive surgery on a fetus who was found to have possessed some degenerative disease. Obviously, in order to see inside the womb, a small camera was inserted inside. Once the cervix was dialated and he can place a few fingers inside, the baby grasped his thumb. This event was apparently a significant one for him, and I believe the photo won the Pulitzer Prize. The point is, I agree, with the advent of greater technology we are constantly realizing that the unborn are far more human than the pro-aborts would like to give credit for.However, I believe that a very large number of people who accept the pro-choice philosophy really do not have a strong grasp on what a fetus is or can understand the sociological and psychological impact this ignorance fosters. Don't hold back for me.... Tell me how you really feel. Have we ever engaged in a debate about anything geological? Its rare that I ever post any thing concerning geology.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

I've addressed you numerous times. Now we're just going around in circles. So? An octopus is a living organism. Since the fetus has all of these things along with the human DNA encoded within them, which is exactly what makes a fetus as human as all other human beings. Then an infant isn't a human being according to your inconsistent statements. For the record Crash, when does a non-human achieve the much coveted title, rank, and rights of a human being? You told me at birth. Does that include a partial birth abortion where the fetus is pulled out of the birth canal and has a pair of surgical scissors jammed into the base of the skull, and then opened so a high-powered negative vacuum can suck out the brain? Or do you get to become a human being when you have "hopes, dreams, plans, communications, the fear of death" etc? Okay... You said that a fetus does not. Want to address that or do you want to keep trying to derail the conversation by using irrelevant and non-existent corollaries in order to dehumanize a fetus? You're right... Not everyone loves babies. Some people despise them because they are parasites who need help for their own survival. I guess I was only referring to normal people who enjoy the simple joys of children and congratulate their friends and family on their pregnancy. My apologies for the confusion. But you do. Remember, we all start off as little babies Crash-- even you. You don't advocate for them. You have though. As long as somebody wants it, as far you are concerned, abortion for all. Burden or privilege? Some people would love to have your potential burden in the form of a healthy sperm count or an operable uterus. Since you don't seem to need or want that burden, why don't you do all parties a favor and get a vasectomy. That way there is no chance that your wife can get pregnant and there will be no need for needless abortions.

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Your solution to a bad home life is to just kill them?

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Preventing their existence in the first place is getting a tubal ligation or a vasectomy. Once created, they now exist, right? What you are talking about is snuffing them out by removing them from existence. The shocking part is that those who don't want to get pregnant don't have the forethought to get a tubal or a vasectomy. That's the shocking part. Crash, I'm talking about human interaction here. When you tell your family or friends that you are pregnant, the first thing that comes to their mind is to congratulate you. They don't ordinarily say, "Dammit, another parasite!" Next time I'll bring my A-game, dogg... You asserted that the pro-life movement was not really about trying to save the unborn, but really was about "slut shaming." I was correcting you since you overlooked all of the married or monogamous couples that get abortions. That isn't even remotely true, and even supposing it was, what would lead you to believe there is a connection? The rate of violence was the worst it ever was in the late 80's and early 90's, and has begun to taper off since about 1995. Then avoid getting pregnant. Problem solved. What do you mean? There is a Pregnancy Resource Center or something comparable in most large cities. What kind of tools are you referring to? I have my wife who can tell me, first hand, about an unexpected pregnancy. She made the right choice.

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I think a father should be a father and not a sperm donor, but that is not a reason to kill a child.

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Its completely applicable because you said its unfair to have fatherless children. This was just one of your piss-poor justifications for killing the child. If my comment was a strawman, yours is king of the scarecrows. Babies would beg to differ. You seem to be under the assumption that if someoen isn't aware that they are about to die, its not really immoral. I'm not speaking for all, I'm simply relaying what predominates them. As for not all women feeling the post abortion blues, I have no doubt some are calloused enough to erase the pain-- especially those who have had one more than one. No, we don't ban it because it makes some people feel bad. Feeling bad is simply the self-evidence that its wrong. The fact that its wrong is the only reason why it would ever be banned. Excuse me??? My loathing and disdain for women? I'll let my wife, my daughter, and my mother know how much I loathe them. Crash, why don't you just try and deal with issues without lying about your adversary? I do believe this is what Petro was referring to. Crash, please explain to me how not wanting babies to be chopped in to minced meat and suck into a basin constitutes "sexism?" This is the lie that many pro-aborts have propagated through the years. That its impossible for a pro-lifer to care about mother and child. So you heap slanderous insults in attempt to derail the conversation. You also realize, presumably, that many if not most women think abortion is as squalid as I do. Is it my loathing of women or my loathing of abortion?

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I had sex two nights ago and the time of my life.

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Just rectifying more of your lies and slander... You said that we believe sex is dirty, and serious, and not to be talked about. Well, its not dirty, you can both laugh hysterically through it if you want, and I'll be more than happy to discuss sex in detail with you to show you and the lurkers that your slander, as usual, is unfounded. Its like the pro-life stance. We worry about both. Crash, you're married, right? You should know as well as I that a man is not the outspoken leader in the relationship. My wife pretty much runs the show, buddy. I'll let her know that I'm the boss... she'll get a good kick out of that being that the last thing she is is a doormat. How can we prevent them other than by what we've been doing-- which is raising awareness, making websites, engaging the community, creating pregnancy resource centers, debating and rallying, lobbying in Washington to get a national vote, etc? What more should the Pro-Life community be doing?

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

Thank you, Iano. You should consider coming back full time. It seems unnatural that you are not here, because when I first arrived at EvC, it was your hand (avatar) that was the telltale sign for me that I was amongst friends.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

You say this as if a fetus has some malevolent intentions or as if it is some sort of aberration that a fetus is dependent upon its mother for survival. You do realize that this trend continues long after birth, I presume? What does "want" have anything to do with it? Tell me RAZD: When a man who just wants to have sex and he gets a girl pregnant, suppose she wants to keep the child. Does his whiny cry of, "I didn't want to have kids" play any factor in whether or not he is made to legally pay child support? Should his "want" supersede his moral obligation? No. Why should it be any different for a woman? No RAZD, this is the sad part-- that you equate a baby growing inside her mother's womb as a stranger coming in watching your television. There are a lot of things that we don't, RAZD, but we keep moving because we are obligated to it. And if its so much of a problem for her, she can adopt the child and wash her hands of him once and for all. That fetus did not will itself upon anyone, least of all, his/her own mother. The mother and father placed him/her there. Really, there is such a thing called accountability and it supersedes any of our wants and desires. is more commonly referred to as, "nature." "Robbing her?" If it robs her or impinges on her ability to carry on the life in the way she desires, then maybe she should have exercised her freedom of choice beforehand... Its not like she didn't know that such a possibility exists. If anyone gets a venereal disease or pregnant these days, they are too well informed long before to claim ignorance about it. Its like these people who smoked for 20 years and try to sue tobacco companies when they develop emphysema. "I just wanted to enjoy smoking. I never intended on developing emphysema." Yeah, no kidding, but you knew the distinct possibility existed before! Then you aren't a person either. It was the "combined" DNA that made you even possible. But if you still say no, when and how does a human being come to life? RAZD, these statistics you've provided literally have nothing to do with abortion. You are conflating the probability that a fetus will grow to be a normal and healthy adult in a way to justify abortion. One has nothing to do with the other. You are adding superfluous elements to the equation to minimize the lifecycle of all humans, heck, all mammals.But consider this: Working the flight deck on an aircraft carrier is dangerous-- some say its the most hazardous job their is, speaking strictly from a probabilistic view point. Because accidents happen on the flight deck, would that somehow detract from someone who sabotaged the flight deck to injure people. No, those numbers mean nothing because its the intent we're looking for. And intentionally killing someone without a legitimate basis is murder. You are blaming a fetus for doing something that nature has doled out, RAZD. This is how you were created. Its how I was. Its how we all were. Why do you speak about in terms as if we were trying to wreak havoc on mothers who we are utterly dependent upon for our own survival, even long after we're born? See that fused hole in your mid section? That's your navel which once connected you to your mother via the umbilical cord. That's where you received your oxygen.As for your terms, such as fetus, blastocyst, etc, those are descriptions of gestation. Those aren't words that dehumanize us anymore than infant, toddler, child, teenager, adult would cancel out or allow us to be referred to as humans.Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

Everybody knows, including young children, how babies are made. We all know what contraceptives are. We all know about venereal diseases. We all know about it and we can't feign ignorance, especially when the majority of women having abortions is between 19-24 years old. Some people opt not to take it very seriously. I'm not sure what else we can do other than impress upon the importance of not allowing hormones to supersede clear and rational choices.What would you do to ameliorate the amount of abortions?

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

Rape and incest combined accounts for less than 1% of all abortions. And since conception does not occur instantaneously, there is enough time to take the morning-after-pill which will do nothing if the fertilization process has already begun or it will stop that implantation of a fertilized egg. I read your whole scenario. I would place that child up for adoption. The mother gets a life sentence no matter what, Rahvin. Nothing is going to unrape her. So instead of making sure she gets a life sentence and the baby a death sentence, why not make tougher laws on the actual offenders instead of having these liberal judges who historically coddle these offenders. Why don't we try that? What do you think abortion entails? Its surgery. She has to "go under the knife" for certain if she opts for an abortion. Well, you know, after a lot of thought, I've decided that all forms of murder really isn't that bad. And it pisses me off that I'm not allowed to kill people that get in my way, hindering my progress, and obstructing my life. I really wish people who don't like murder would just worry about themselves, you know? Who are they to push their morals on us? I mean, if they don't want to commit murders, fine. But I do. Shouldn't I have that right to slash whomever I want?Stop me when you pick up on the sarcasm. sometimes people get pregnant when they don't intend to. Some people are financially or mentally stable to handle young children, especially young girls themselves. Fine. I got that. You aren't consigned to take care of this baby for the rest of their life. Give the baby up for adoption so EVERYONE gets to make out like bandits. Make sense? I suspect its been leaving everyone in an indefensible position which is why no one has responded to it. Do you care about the girls who have died because an abortionist botched it and he ends up killing the girl because her infection at his hands turns into septic shock? Or do only care when somebody try's to do it themselves? As for me, of course I care. Here's my solution: Don't do it! Problem solved. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, least of all jamming coat hangers inside their body. Buyt since every one is quite fond of making up erroneous things about me, I'm just going to go ahead and say that all the men responding to this negatively has an ulterior motive. Yeah, I don't think you give a whit for the women invilved. I think you want to keep abortion legal because that way you don't have to ever wear condoms, but you won't have to worry about paying child support.Is that fair for me to assume? No, it isn't. So at anytime all the people slandering me can stop making up nonsense about how my dislike of abortion is because I'm really just a sexist who wants to shame sluts. Oh, I see... Pregnancy is invasive and traumatic, but abortion is skipping through a meadow of sunflowers. For the record. Are you advocating the execution of the retarded? Give Hitler my regards. If the disease was so debilitating so to make life for that child absolute agony, I think legislation would consider that. But if we're talking about mental retardation, life is far from misery. In fact, the mentally retarded are, without a doubt, the happiest people on the planet. I feel zero remorse for them. In fact, all of humanity could learn alot from them. Its their parents that I feel bad for. But if they can't handle it, there are places they can go with people who will dutifully love and care for them.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

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when does a non-human achieve the much coveted title, rank, and rights of a human being?

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Okay, so then he agrees with President Bush in making partial birth abortions illegal. That's a start, I guess. You either are a human or you are not. There is no in-between. DNA/RNA has all of the genetic markers that make them human, or pig, or whale, or toad, or crocodile. How "independent" is an infant? How about a one year old? A two year old? A three year old? A four year old? A five year old? Can these little people feed themselves? Fend for themselves? No, they can't. All humans are dependent on other humans in many ways. We only progressively become more autonomous as we age, until we are so geriatric that we can no longer independently care for ourselves. Therefore, "independence" is not a clear qualifier for who "gets" to be human and who doesn't. There is a fixed point... Its at conception. The nano-second a sperm fertilizes an egg is the precise point in time where a brand new person generates. Call it God or call it nature, but it is more than evident that this is the case. No more attention than we would give anyone else dying. We do whatever we can, make medical advances, make concerted efforts to save life, and learn more about all medical conditions and genetic predispositions to mitigate needlessly lost lives of all ages.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8