Limits on Abortion

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I don't think I've done anything worth celebrating and I don't deserve the praise.

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But you speak your mind to all of your friends, don't you?You support the women in your own life, right?And you are probably going to have children and raise them with your values, correct?And you already mentioned that you vote pro-woman.That's enough.

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Lets see, I believe that upon conception that a brand new human being is procreated.

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So then you must surely advocate for the enforced collection of all women's menstrual fluid, since most fertilized eggs do not implant and are flushed out of the body during her menstrual period.I mean, at the very least, all of those precious babies should get a decent burial, shouldn't they?Or, some might still be viable after collection and then implanted into a uterus.You must be desperate to do this. So many babies dying in this way must keep you up at night.

Because you say so? Because you say so? Because you said so? Because you say so? Because you say so? And that's your problem... You don't understand. At 4 weeks a heartbeat is already noticeable on an ultrasound, at 8 weeks the spinal cord and all of the nerves are forming simultaneously with the brain and its nodes, which allows him/her to respond to stimuli. By 12 weeks nothing new develops. The baby simply grows larger and stronger and this trend continues long after birth. The belief that its just an amorphous blob that can feel no pain is is an absurdity, especially when you consider that most women do not even know they are pregnant until a few days after they miss their period. That can be anywhere from a few days to a month.But that's besides the point. The fact that they can or can't feel pain isn't even an issue. If I shot you in the head while you were sleeping, you wouldn't feel a thing. But would it make it right? This weak argument that they cannot feel pain is not only untrue, but its inconsequential. We put down dogs more humanely which is a testament to how far we have degenerated.And this dehumanization process is ridiculous. Does anyone come up to a pregnant woman and say, "Oh, damn... Sorry to hear about getting a parasite." No, they say, "Congratulations!" As well they should be. Nobody asks how far along their amorphous blob is. They want to know how far along your baby is, because that's what they are. Nobody wants to know the sex of an amorphous blob. They want to know the sex of the baby.But you don't really understand any of this because you don't have children. You have no idea what its like to look in to the eyes of your own child and think what would have happened had they been torn limb from limb from negative pressure, burned with high concentrations of saline, aspirated and asphyxiated on amniotic fluid and saline, or to have their limbs and skull crushed by forceps or wrenched from their body. So you have the ability to separate yourself from any kind of emotional understanding. Perhaps you'll think twice if and ever you and your wife conceive and you actually opt to keep your child. I can only only pray that happens for you. Who is trying to take away her autonomy, Crash??? She IS autonomous. If I wanted to walk around murdering people and somebody said that is illegal, could I, in any sense, claim that they were trying to take away my autonomy? LOL! We're all a collocation of cells, Crash. Secondly, no one wants to take away any one's right to privacy. What a pernicious and vile lie perpetrated by the pro-aborts. When somebody abuses a child, it no longer becomes a private matter. And anyone not willing to step up in defense of that child is culpable. They are not bound by any law to do so, but woe to them for not. I assume you are aware that in order to sustain the human race, it is by procreation, which entails pregnancies. Secondly, here are the effects that can be associated with abortion.

• A perforated urinary bladder and/or uterus which can further lead to peritonitus.
• Scar tissue can render the woman, who may not want children now, but does later in life, sterile.
• The probability of an ectopic pregnancy increases by an exorbitant rate.
• Placenta previa and breech deliveries are also more likely which place both mother and child at risk.
• The longest lasting effect is post abortion syndrome where women express terrible guilt over their decision and suffer long bouts of depression.

Your solution to a bad home life is to just kill them? Stultifing. LOL! Why wouldn't a pregnancy be celebrated? Ask your mom how she felt when you were an amorphous blob. Again, I presume that you do realize this is how every single human being had their start, right? What does enjoyment of sex have to do with abortion? *raises hand* Ooh, I know! The answer is: Nothing. More inventions. Yes, please tell me what promiscuity has to do with abortions as opposed to married or faithful partners? I know the answer to that too. The answer is: Nothing. More abortions means less crime? How about, figure out how contraceptives work, plan accordingly, and stop taking out your aggressions and your ineptitude on defenseless children. Harlequin babies are an extreme rarity. But perhaps in an instance where there is little chance for any normal life or where undue pain would be inflicted on the child, I might consider that as another viable reason for an abortion. Afterall, that is the premise of this thread. When are you going to place blame squarely where it is deserving Crash? At what point are you going to realize that the mother and father have everything to do with the life of the child? Why do you search for excuses to take away the obvious fact that the fetus did not and cannot will itself in to existence? I think a father should be a father and not a sperm donor, but that is not a reason to kill a child. There are countless fatherless children, who ideally would be better off with a loving father, but in the absence of such, still find a way to survive. That's no reason to kill them. If the father walks out of the family after he has already established a relationship with, say, a three year old, is that not worse? Should we kill the toddler because she misses her daddy? Nothing is going to unrape that woman and aborting her baby isn't going to erase the horrific memory. Killing the child only serves to make two tragedies. Aside from which, blame the father-- the rapist, not the child. That would be ideal. If there were no abortions, I'm sure we'd all be happy. So why not, then, get to the heart of the matter? Stop blaming the child and start holding people accountable for their actions which will not only hurt them in the long run, but also hurt others. Babies would beg to differ. I beg to differ. LOL! If you cared about women you would urge them to respect life and to accept responsibility. I don't think you realize how connected women are to motherhood, Crash. If you think women skip away with a grin from ear to ear over their abortion, you're seriously deluded. It is a traumatic event, and somebody that actually cares for them, who doesn;t want their money, who is concerned for BOTH her and her baby is waiting to help them.Do you know that in abortion clinics they speak in code? The doctor doesn't say to the nurse, "I've now severed the head and am going to remove the torso." No, they say, "Number one and number two are separate." Why? Because every women has an emotional attachment to her child, even when her common sense is skewed by these peddlers. Why not just say what it is, then? Because she'll back out. She thinks that an amorphous blob is being removed from her uterus, because they don't let her see the ultrasound. The second she does, she's liable to snap back in to reality and change her mind. LOL! Yeah, that's my world Crash. You got me pegged. Sole worth? Yeah, usually when I talk to my wife I just speak in to her vagina. Hang on... A tragedy? Why is it a tragedy, Crash? Its just an amorphous blob-- a collection of cells-- a parasite-- an invader, etc... No, this is your fantasy. Two of my girlfriends have miscarried in my younger days. And this was even back when I advocated abortion. I only did so because I was listening to people much like yourself. Even then I was devastated. My sister also miscarried before she had her two children. Never in there did we expect abortion. How would you know since you claim there is no way of knowing whether the miscarriage was intentional or not? LOL! I had sex two nights ago and the time of my life. I can tell you all about it if you'd like. can come and talk to me or any one else about how to handle the situation that is going to best for her own solidarity and that of her child's. Your world is a carnival of conspiracy as you have completed invented scenarios about me just because, heaven forbid, that I care about BOTH mother and child. You presume to know much about me, Crash, but your tirade only serves to confirm that you believe what you want to believe, because hating me makes it easier to deal with my rationale discourse.If you really want to know about who I am, just ask. I'm straight up. You don't need to jeer and mock in order to get your point across. I understand your position very well... better than you give me credit for. I've been on both sides of the fence. But you have no idea what this really entails. And if and when you have children of your own, you won't look at it the same way. It hits you like a ton of bricks.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Uh... yes, he would, NJ. The nervous system doesn't shut off when you go to sleep. Except for the pregnant women who are in tears because they don't know what to do about the pregancy. I mean... I guess you can yell "congratulations" at them, but it would be kind of stupid. Yes... I too am a sequence of words or terms which co-occur more often than would be expected by chance.Of cells. What you don't mention is that the chances of serious complications are 1 in 100,000, while the chance of serious complications in pregnancy are 1 in 10,000. Source.As always, don't let this spoil your fun. Congratulations. This is, without question, the most ridiculously fucking naive thing I have ever read in my life.I read books by David Icke for fun. He honestly believes that the world is controlled by Illuminati snake demons.This wins. Ooh! Can I be there when you laugh out loud, and ask her why she's not celebrating her pregnancy? But your posts make it so easy!Edited by Dan Carroll, : to correct link

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"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

Too much to talk about in Nem's latest post and, frankly, others are doing better than I. I just wanted to point out this little absurd gem: I appreciate how those aligned with the Pro-Life movement are always concerned about the all-too real dangers of human extinction...

NJ,One could take the hate being directed at you as proof that you are correct. I mean, what is this about? This surely does not look to me like any kind of a rational response from a psychological perspective.You say basically,we are human beings from the moment of conception, and the response sounds like I am listening to the prosecutors at the Salem Witch Trails.Here have a look at this, lots of interesting research going on these days on prenatal memory and learning.Just a moment...Just a moment...Fetal memory: Does it exist? What does it do?So when scientists really look, they find more and more evidence of prenatal humanness. Boy! That must scare the crap out of the pro- abortion crowd. Watch the attacks begin.Petrophysics (a follower of no religion)P.S. You still don't know crap about geology. When I get a chance I'll get back to that forum and straighten you out.

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One could take the hate being directed at you as proof that you are correct.

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Yeah. Hatred is usually a good sign that the hated person is correct. That's why Nazis and the KKK are probably correct.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

Do you really think that the hate being directed at NJ is normal?

Could you quote a few passages that typify what you consider "hate being directed at NJ"?

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No - for the reasons I gave. You don't appear to have addressed those. And an octopus has the same features. Merely having a heart and a brain is not significant - a worm possesses the same features.I know what makes a human. Hopes, dreams, plans, communication. The fear and knowledge of death. The recognition of self. Women have those things. Zygotes do not. A potted fern can feel pain. Yeah, sometimes they do. Not everybody sees pregnancy as a blessing. NJ. Why do you think women have abortions? No. I'm just not willing to make decisions for other people based on my emotions. How can you feel that's appropriate? Indeed I am, but I don't see the relevance. I've hardly asserted "abortions for everybody", so you're arguing a strawman. From what I can tell there's no shortage of women who actually do want to be pregnant; let them shoulder the burden of propagating the human race.But pregnancy and childbirth is hardly so rare an event that we need to force it on the unwilling. No - to prevent them from having existed in the first place. Sit down, this may shock you - not everybody wants to be pregnant. Why else do you think they're having abortions, NJ? Honestly, it's like you can't think things through. Why do you have such a problem with that? If pregnancies are universally celebrated, NJ, then why are women having abortions?Honestly I would have thought that, in the 2 days you had to deal with my post, you could have brought your A-game - instead of this trash. Why wouldn't it have anything to do with it? Are you under the impression that God only lets married women get pregnant, or something? Yeah, oddly enough. We've seen a marked reduction in violent crime since Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in the US. It's not really that weird when you think about it - the number 1 predictor of criminal behavior is growing up in poverty, and women who have access to abortion tend to avoid raising children in those conditions.People are reasonable, NJ. They know that there's a certain kind of environment that's best for raising children, and some environments that are inherently traumatic and unsuitable for a child's development. People want to avoid bringing children into that life.Why is it that so-called "pro-life" organizations aren't interested in giving them the tools to do so? That's why I'm pro-choice, NJ. It's the mother who has everything to do with it.What I don't understand is why you think you know better than she does. Strawman. Nobody's talking about infanticide or the killing of children. Babies, by definition, aren't affected by abortion because they're already born. Moreover, they cannot beg. Unlike you I would never presume to speak for all women, but contrary to your characterization, many women do have abortions without experiencing depression - depression is much more commonly post-partum than abortion-related. Many women find their abortion a relief. Many women, later, have every reason to celebrate their abortion as taking a step towards the ownership of their bodies.And, indeed, many women regret their abortion. It's a wide old world, NJ, and many people experience the exact same thing in radically different ways.Are we going to ban everything that someone, at sometime, felt bad about doing? I wonder what would be left to do at that point. In fact, even when you come right out and describe abortion as "baby-murder", women still get abortions. Unlike in your world where an adult woman, apparently, lacks all sense and is easily swayed by the last male voice to say something - women in the real world know what they're doing, and are capable of making adult decisions.I realize that your disdain and loathing of women makes it impossible for you to believe this, but women aren't getting "suckered" into abortions. They're usually making the decision on their own. I realize the idea of a woman making decisions is terrifying for you, but it happens. Is happening. I suggest you get over yourself. Because a woman gets hurt, NJ.Man. You couldn't even remember to pretend like you thought women were actually people for even a whole post, could you, NJ? Your disdain for women is so strong that you couldn't even remember to pretend like they had feelings that matter for one whole post.Amazing. Disgusting, but amazing. I don't believe I've ever met someone so completely impotent at disguising his loathing for the opposite sex. I've met sexists, but you're on a completely different level. What? If you want to know the methodologies of the studies, why don't you ask the people that conduct them? Surely the concept of an anonymous survey shouldn't be completely alien to you, if you can imagine - just for a moment - that somebody, somewhere, would be interested in what women have to say.I know it's an amazing new thought for you, but just stick with it, for a second. Women actually have experiences that people might be interested in learning about. Amazing, isn't it? Funny how you consider your pleasure to be the only thing worth bragging about... Oh, now it's "rational discourse"? I thought it was "emotional understanding."Of course, the truth is that it's neither - it's the ranting of a sexist, who sees women as something beneath his regard. You make it abundantly clear in every single post. Your sole interest in women is in what they can do for you. Sexually, procreationally - you've proven me right in every regard. You joke about speaking into your wife's vagina, but the joke is that I bet you're the one who does all the talking in your marriage - what on Earth, you think, could your wife possibly have to say worth listening to? There's no need. The way you talk about women makes it abundantly clear how you view them. So have I, NJ. Or did you forget that I was once like you? Conservative, Republican, pro-life, creationist? Fundamentalist Christian?Oh, that's right. You think those positions are so eminently reasonable - simultaneously based on "rational argument" and "emotional understanding", somehow - that it's impossible for you to believe that anyone could ever find them bankrupt. If having children will make me into an arrogant, posturing sexist who doesn't know any better than to nose himself into other people's business and tell them how to live their lives, then I'm thankful that abortion is still legal, that I might be spared any chance of that horrible outcome befalling me.But enough about that. What I really want to know is why you completely avoided my question? The single issue at the heart of my post, that you completely tap-danced around, is that the policies promoted by you and other "pro-lifers" don't actually prevent any abortions.The policies promoted by the pro-choice position do result in fewer abortions. Yet you roundly oppose those policies.Why is that? Answer the question.

Perhaps, then, you could address the arguments put forth in message 66? NJ wasn't able to.I wonder if you can address the contradictions that lie at the heart of the pro-life movement, then. Why is it that, despite claiming to oppose abortion, they promote policies that increase abortions and oppose policies that reduce the number of abortions?These were questions that NJ was not able to address. Hopefully you can? Yet, oddly enough, no civilization on Earth has ever recognized conception as the beginning of the self, nor calculated the age of individuals from conception.Birth has been and is now the universal, legal definition of the beginning of personhood and identity. Why is that, in your view? I hope you won't find my post an "attack", but rather, an attempt to engage your sparse arguments rationally. Since your position is, in your view, so eminently reasonable, surely you'll be able to provide answers to my questions.

I'm not saying that it is either normal or abnormal; I was quoting your comment that the hate being directed at nem is evidence that he is correct.People might be hating him, or they might not.The hatred may be normal, or it might not.Nem might even be correct, or he might not.But I'm pretty sure that even if he's right, the hatred directed toward him doesn't count as evidence of it.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

Actually, I'm told it is not totally universal. My sister-in-law spent a year plus in the '70s deep in Papua living with the locals under some very interesting conditions.She told me then that a new born is not given a name or considered a part of the family in a real way until they are a year old. If they die after a year there is a large village wide morning ceremony and so on; if they die under one year the body is dumped in the jungle. The infant motality rate is high and there doesn't seem to be any bonding or recognition of the child until they get past the first year.I'd say that counts as a "legal" recognition of "personhood" at a point a year after birth.

Phew!. Great going there NJ. Fantastic writing quality and penetration given the amount of opposition. The red bar makes me shudder in rememberance I would have thought a little fairplay would be due you given the uneveness of the battle. Pigs might fly. Take heart in the fact that every outlandish situation imaginable is being posed for your perusal - which serves to ill-disguise the fact that the vast majority of abortions are merely self-serving lifestyle choices: mommy throwing her toys out of the cot and little more.The wriggling around will be gratifying - whenever you get the time to catch your breathGod Bless.Edited by iano, : Thanks for the heads up Chiro.

Too bad there isn't a "Nomination for Longest Subtitle With the Most Tortured Syntax of the Month" thread.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine