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Author | Topic: Evolution or Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You would be wrong about that, at least in my case.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: 1) So you are the one who decides what God can and can't be? 2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either. Who said He did? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either. quote: You are the one saying that you believe the Bible in scientific matters over the actual science, so, you did. (Plan on addressing the other sentence in my post?)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
quote: (Plan on addressing the other sentence in my post?) Why should I it has nothing to do with the OP but why not: You either have a warped mind or a warped sense of humor. How does me stating that God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poetmake me the one deciding what God can or can't be? But you sure can decide what I said even though I didn't say it.Will you please stop putting words in my mouth I did not say?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5551 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
How does me stating that God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet
Come on, ICANT. You said that the genesis should not be interpreted as poetic alegory, because god does not claim to be a poet. So you are the one saying that he can't be a poet. You've deceided that only a literal interpretation of the bible is acceptable. You are telling us (and god) how to properly interpret his word. An act of hubris.
make me the one deciding what God can or can't be? But you sure can decide what I said even though I didn't say it.Will you please stop putting words in my mouth I did not say?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'm sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood. How silly of me to conclude that when someone suggested to you that the God of the Bible is a poet who used parable to instruct us, and you responded by writing, "God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet.", you meant to say that you did not think that God was a poet. Perhaps you can tell me what you really meant. OTOH, I suppose it is your position that the Song of Solomon, a good portion of the book of Job, and the Psalms are not the Word of God, then?
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
ICANT writes:
So, if one thing in the Bible turns out to be untrue then the whole Bible is untrue? If the recorded things God said and did in the day of Creation did not happen exactly as He said that day (all in one day) then God is a Liar, and none of the Bible is true. I guess you better become an athiest or at least move to a faith not based upon the Old Testament because:
quote:Neither rabbits nor coneys chew cud. That is, assuming that one wrong fact undoes all truth in a manuscript. However, if you accept the truth of scripture despite this minor discrepancy(among others), why must the problems of the creation story get in the way of belief in the power of Christ?
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
I Cant: So according to you my belief in God is based on experience. Genuine belief is a spontaneous, involuntary response to experience. About the details of your biography I only know what you tell me. What you told me earlier was that you 'believed' when you read the Bible at age seven. In the absence of any other details, I credited this professed belief as being the genuine article. I pointed out that reading the Bible is itself an experience. Your belief (if genuine) thus came from experience, as all genuine belief does. Now you offer a more detailed, and weird, story. Here it is as you tell it.
I read the Bible. From the things I read in the Bible I came to some conclusions. I then analyzed my conclusions. I then chose to believe the Bible account of God. I could have just as easily discarded the idea. I believe Genesis 1:1 Let's look at that beauty a little closer. Note the words I have placed in boldface type.
I read the Bible. From the things I read in the Bible I came to some conclusions. I then analyzed my conclusions. I then chose to believe the Bible account of God. I could have just as easily discarded the idea. I believe Genesis 1:1 Are you starting to see the problem? It appears you already believed at the point of line 2. That's where you say you 'came to some conclusions.'
[qs]I read the Bible.From the things I read in the Bible [/b]I came to some conclusions.[/b][/qs] Forming a conclusion IS believing. Oddly, though, you don't see these conclusions as the beginning of your belief. Maybe you have good reason. You don't say, after all, what these conclusions were. Maybe the existence of God wasn't the first order of business. Maybe the seven-year-old you more pressing issues to resolve first. Were you convinced God exists by what you read? That's belief. Were you trying to figure out what was expected of you before proceeding? That's fear.
I then analyzed my conclusions. I then chose to believe the Bible account of God. First you say you arrived at conclusions, then later willed your 'belief.' Odd.
I could have just as easily discarded the idea. Then you're not talking about an idea you really believe.
I believe Genesis 1:1 A ringing endorsement... given that you could 'just as easily discard the idea.' You talk about belief as if you were voting in a particularly odious small-town election. You are only acquainted with one candidate and you assume the existence of only two. You're not enthusiastic about either of them. But you don't see any benefit for yourself in declaring yourself undecided. You may as well throw the lever one way or the other to secure a few benefits for yourself. You announced early in the campaign that you would vote for Candidate A. He's the guy your relatives are voting for. A has promised to pay you good money for your vote. He has also threatened to beat you up if he loses. His opponent has offered no similar inducements. Now, two days before the election, you've decided you may as well hear what Candidate B has to say. You drop in on a rally. You tell everyone your vote can still be had. You listen to the stump speech to hear if Candidate B is willing to beat Candidate A's offer. But the more B talks the less you feel any reason to switch your (admittedly shallow) loyalties. B refuses to offer you money for your vote and says nothing that makes you fear for your personal safety if you remain in the rival camp. In the Q&A session you tell Candidate B as much. B tells you you're a living example of the kind of corruption he opposes. You are appalled that any candidate would talk to you this way. You're an honest voter. You're trying to be fair. You've given this person one last chance to offer you better money or scare more shit out of you than the other guy. If he's not willing to make the effort, well... it's not your fault he lost your vote, is it? That's politics. But it's not personal belief. Belief is about convictions. Not making deals. And it's sad that, after 67 years of living, you show no awareness of the difference. _______ Archer All species are transitional.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ICANT writes: What would of been the benefit for me to be an atheist? What would be the benefit for me to believe that I evolved from a single cell life form that nobody knows where it came from, how or why it appeared in a universe that came from an infinitely small nothing that nobody knows where it came from, how, or why? You seem to keep asking this question. After everyone has given you plenty of answers. Do you not like the answers? Are they not good enough for you (certainly acceptable)? I'll repeat my answer from Message 48:
quote: But, as many others have pointed out to you, you don't even have to turn to your "atheism" in order to follow objective truth (it is a false dichotomy). You only need to be willing to accept things that can be shown to you. There is no need to give up God. There is no need to stop believing in God. There is no need to stop being a Christian. You only have to stop accepting things people tell you, and start accepting the things that can be shown to you. Is that what's wrong? Does accepting things that can be shown as real/reproducible/objective to you scare you, or seem evil in some way?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Come on, ICANT. You said that the genesis should not be interpreted as poetic alegory, because god does not claim to be a poet. So you are the one saying that he can't be a poet. You've deceided that only a literal interpretation of the bible is acceptable. You are telling us (and god) how to properly interpret his word. An act of hubris. I said God does not claim to be a poet.How does that not make Him a poet if He wants to be one and is one? You say that since I choose to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible I say God can't be a poet. That is nonsense. Because you believe it is a poetic alegory you are saying He can't be God. That means you are saying He was a poet and can only be a poet. Now who is telling God what He can or can't be? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Codegate Member (Idle past 849 days) Posts: 84 From: The Great White North Joined: |
icant writes: As I understand the string theory it is an effort to show what was before the big bang. This is a big misconception that many many laypeople have about the universe. There is no 'before' the big bang. Time did not exist prior to the event, at least according to all modern theories. There are others here (cavediver, son goku) that are FAR more learned in this department then I. They have discussed it many times in the past with others on other threads here. Have a read and post on those threads (or start a new one) if you have any questions.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That is not what anyone has suggested. We are saying that if Genesis is a poetic allegory it does not diminish God at all, and in fact makes His Word even more meaningful. Have you really reduced the Bible to be nothing more than a dry list of events to be catalogued and blindly believed? Taken as allegory, Genesis is a richly symbolic and meaningful lesson about God's relationship to man and to the universe. Taken as literal fact, it is just a list of stuff that God did which you have stripped of any greater or wider meaning. But since you mention it, can you explain how it is that God created "day" and "night" before he created the sun? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Belief is about convictions. Not making deals. Belief is about convictions. Archer have you read the OP?
Message 1 These are facts as far as I am concerned. quote: quote: You may think this statement is a joke: I would not trade what I have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet has combined.That come out to 92.5 billion dollars. I think I have a little conviction about what I believe. BTW I read the Bible through 2 times and was on my third time before my mind was completely convinced and I Trusted Christ for Salvation. So you make whatever you want to out of this. So who made a deal? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
What would of been the benefit for me to be an atheist?. Stile, I do want to thank you for answering the OP and saying, Then atheism has nothing for you..
You only need to be willing to accept things that can be shown to you. Prove to me where the first single cell life form came from, how and why.Prove to me where the singularity that the Universe came from, how and why. When you have accomplished this then I might listen to any other things that you might want to convince me of. You see the Bible tells me the answer to these Questions. Atheism and Evolution does not and can not answer them. All they can say is we don't know. But because we exist and the universe exist we know it happened. Do you know how stupid this sounds to a creationist?I suppose to put it on a level you can understand I would say that it sounds as stupid to me as me saying that in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth does to the Atheist.
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