Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 79 (8897 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-20-2019 11:56 AM
204 online now:
dwise1, JonF, kjsimons, PaulK, Tangle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 198 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,484 Year: 3,521/19,786 Month: 516/1,087 Week: 106/212 Day: 22/14 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
78
9
1011
...
45NextFF
Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 121 of 670 (418507)
08-28-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
08-28-2007 11:24 AM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
Jar writes:

To start off you said,

"We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some."

If that is really in response to what I had posted earlier, it could be an addendum, "Preach the Gospel, if necessary use words or pictures." But words or pictures are still only means of last resort. The primary way to preach the Gospel is to do; not say, not sing, not testify, but do.

Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel.
If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man, then when you tell me to teach how to discriminate and evaluate rather than merely parroting the Bible seems like sound advice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 11:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 7:44 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 670 (418526)
08-28-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-28-2007 4:14 PM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel.

So what?

The issue is "Does a given interpretation stand up when tested against reason, logic and reality?"

If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man,...

What value is there in telling someone that?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 4:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-01-2007 9:43 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 123 of 670 (419136)
09-01-2007 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
08-28-2007 7:44 PM


The Communal Nervous System
Well, Jar..I am in the process of reading Language In Thought And Action. So far, I have read the first chapter, and have highlighted a couple of points: To Wit:
Do the words we utter arise as a result of our thoughts, or are our thoughts determined by the linguistic systems we happen to have been taught?
The vacuum tube and transistor have produced in the twentieth century a revolution in communication, a revolution perhaps more far-reaching in its effects than the invention of printing, which ushered in the Renaissance.
I assume he means the microchip as well as the transistor! ;)

I am just getting started in this book, but what I have gleaned so far is that humans are unique apart from other animals in that

Dogs, Cats, or chimpanzees do not, so far as we can tell, increase their wisdom, their information, or their control over their environment from one generation to the next. Humans do.

Connecting with my pet topic of religion, lets take Jesus as an example and focus for my next question.

Given that Jesus was in your opinion only human, did Jesus have to learn everything about his environment and culture by reading, testing, and deducing? (Like everyone else?)

OR....does the following scripture have any merits and/or clues about His uniqueness?

NIV writes:

Mark 1:22-23-- The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

So was he just a good student? Nothing more?

NIV writes:

Matt 7:28-29-- When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

My point is that it appears from the text that Jesus may have had another source for his wisdom apart from the sources that most students have. Either that or he had really good teachers and/or a real desire to learn.

I'll keep commenting on Language In Thought And Action as I read it, BTW. :)


Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 7:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 09-01-2007 12:48 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 670 (419181)
09-01-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
09-01-2007 9:43 AM


Re: The Communal Nervous System
I assume he means the microchip as well as the transistor!

No, he meant the transistor. I'm not sure what you mean by microchip.

He was also wrong about the other animals. Since the book was originally written we have learned much. We now know that many of the other animals also "increase their wisdom, their information, or their control over their environment from one generation to the next." So that is not just a human trait.

Given that Jesus was in your opinion only human, did Jesus have to learn everything about his environment and culture by reading, testing, and deducing? (Like everyone else?)

Yes. Just like everyone else.

And I do not see where your quote even implies anything about a "source for his wisdom apart from the sources that most students have. " In fact it doesn't deal with either what he said or where he got his information, but only with his presentation, his delivery.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-01-2007 9:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 09-03-2007 7:42 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 125 of 670 (419601)
09-03-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
09-01-2007 12:48 PM


The Map and The Territory
jar writes:

I'm not sure what you mean by microchip.

The revolution in communication surely would include the microchip, (used in cellphones and computers) is all I am saying. Hayakawa wrote the book B.C. (Before Computers)
Anyway, I am at the point in the book where it talks of Maps and Territories, which has always been one of your pet quotes! :p The quote came from Alfred Korzybski who is apparently the inspiration for much of Hayakawas semantics.

Hayakawa writes:

(Citizens) need to be systematically aware of the powers and limitations of symbols, especially words,if they are to guard against being driven into complete bewilderment by the complexity of their semantic environment.
The symbol-----|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing symbolized
The map--------|-------IS NOT-------|---the territory
The word-------|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing


As an example, Hayakawa talks of how most of our knowledge comes to us only in words, which are reports based on other reports that contrast with direct experience. (Secondhand information, in other words.)

I guess what he is saying is that learning about Tokyo is not the same as visiting and experiencing Tokyo.
So...do you believe that Jesus is a symbol of God? (If so, it would mean that Jesus is not God. (As in God The Son)

Edited by Phat, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 09-01-2007 12:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 126 of 670 (419750)
09-04-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
08-01-2007 11:12 AM


Jesus: Only human while on earth?
Jar writes:

Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud.

Why?

Many websites claim that Jesus was God..in a Trinitarian mindset.

here and here as well as shown in the answers to this Theological Test here...and my question is that why is this issue so controversial? I mean, why couldn't Jesus have been all God and still fully human otherwise? Why is this so contentious with you?

Edited by Phat, : added


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-01-2007 11:12 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 09-04-2007 5:04 PM Phat has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2002 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 127 of 670 (419757)
09-04-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
08-01-2007 11:12 AM


Re: some thoughts on relationships
Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud.

one of my friends said this last night. do elaborate. i understand the premise that if he was really god he couldn't die or feel pain and the "sacrifice" is meaningless, but i'm not convinced this is a necessary assumption that god cannot feel pain, and that it is not possible that the flesh (the wholly man part) alone died and the spirit (the wholly god part) went to do his fight with death or what have you.

you know already how completely unimportant to me this is, but i'm really curious about the reasoning.

content hidden - this thread is a great debate between jar and phat, please do not respond - AA

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-01-2007 11:12 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 670 (419766)
09-04-2007 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
09-04-2007 3:26 PM


Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
Many websites claim that Jesus was God..in a Trinitarian mindset. ...
here and here as well as shown in the answers to this Theological Test here...and my question is that why is this issue so controversial?

I don't know if it is controversial. But it is silly.

If Jesus was God during his lifetime here on earth, then there doesn't seem to be any purpose or importance to his life. A God dying and then being resurrected is no big deal, theology is littered with such critters, and in addition, it tells us nothing of any use or value.

Gods dying and being reborn tells us nothing about what happens to us, to humans. The fact that a god can do something says nothing about what human can do.

The same thing applies to all of his behavior. It is nothing for a god to resist temptation, walk on water, do miracles. Really no big deal.

The Jesus who is God and Man while here on earth is really little more than a carny sideshow freak.

I mean, why couldn't Jesus have been all God and still fully human otherwise?

Yeah right.

Sorry but that is just more of the palm the pea nonsense. There are attributes of a god that exclude being human and attributes of a human that exclude being god.

Folk are free to believe such things, I just don't see how such beliefs can stand up to examination by reason, logic and reality.

AbE:

Let me expand on this a little.

If someone can explain how someone can be wholly God and man at the same time, I am willing to consider it.

BUT...

being wholly man is a completely different lesson.

First it is a real sacrifice instead of the little parody of "pay for our sins" normally presented. Being wholly man means that Jesus did not know for sure he would be raised, that there was life after death, whether what he said would be accepted. Being wholly man means that Jesus shat on himself, spit up, went through the pain of teething, had to learn to talk, learn to walk.

Humans cannot kill a god, if so, then human are more powerful than the god. If the god can then be reborn, it is not really death but rather some kids game, "Bang bang, you're daid! What should we play now?"

If Jesus is a God walking amongst us, what does that teach us?

Edited by jar, : expand


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-04-2007 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 09-06-2007 5:06 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 129 of 670 (420193)
09-06-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
09-04-2007 5:04 PM


Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
Jar writes:

If Jesus is a God walking amongst us, what does that teach us?


  • That God cared enough about us worms to intervene.
    Much of the support for my theological answers rests on the assumption of original sin so I can foresee the different theological approaches that you and I take in arriving at conclusions.

    Lets address some of your conclusions about religion:

    Jar writes:

    A GOD that chooses who will be saved doesn’t make sense. A GOD that creates all and then goes through and picks and chooses who will be saved is just plain cruel and arbitrary and not something to be worshiped.

    Phat writes:

    I agree, but would maintain that humans become the decisions they make and are thus responsible for their path in life...irregardless whether or not God "foreknows" it...

    A GOD that wants to be worshiped is just too silly a thought.

    Phat writes:

    Unless God knows that the discipline of worship is good for us.

    Maybe some picayune God might worry about what folk thought of Her, like the little girl who worries that her corsage might not be right, too big, or too small, or the guy that worries about his tie not being in style or that people think he looks funny, but GOD cannot be so insecure.
    Phat writes:

    I don't imagine that God is insecure...it is that we are too secure without Him. Thats the whole problem!

    The idea of “Once saved always saved” just made no sense. That’s one of those simplistic ideas that gives folk an out. “Anyone who does something really wrong obviously wasn’t saved in the first place”, or so their argument went. That just felt way to much like a copout and just another example of mental gymnastics, a way of cheating and making excuses.

    Of course, nobody knows who is and is not saved...if such a reality exists. The whole idea of God creating a freewill Lucifer that chooses to become Satan and then is used as a temperer for mens souls sounds probable, perhaps, but I think that we are part of our future destiny by way of our behavior. So in that sense I agree with you.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by jar, posted 09-04-2007 5:04 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 130 of 670 (420194)
    09-06-2007 5:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
    09-06-2007 5:06 PM


    Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
    That God cared enough about us worms to intervene.

    Huh? What does that even mean?

    I agree, but would maintain that humans become the decisions they make and are thus responsible for their path in life...irregardless whether or not God "foreknows" it...

    If God foreknows that someone will make the decisions that lead to being damned, and still creates that person, then that God is evil.

    Unless God knows that the discipline of worship is good for us.

    I'm sorry but unless you can support that it means little. A God that wants to be worshiped is still a sick little critter.

    I don't imagine that God is insecure...it is that we are too secure without Him. Thats the whole problem!

    What exactly is the "Whole problem?"


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Phat, posted 09-06-2007 5:06 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-07-2007 2:20 PM jar has responded
     Message 132 by Phat, posted 09-07-2007 2:25 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12159
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 131 of 670 (420345)
    09-07-2007 2:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by jar
    09-06-2007 5:25 PM


    What About Prayer?
    Jar writes:

    A God that wants to be worshiped is still a sick little critter.

    Okay. So what is your attitude about prayer? Is it necessary and if not, is it beneficial, in your opinion? I heard a good sermon this morning from Chip Ingram-Read Great Books Part 2
    He talks about how his prayer life went from sad to glad, and explains why he thinks it helped him.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 133 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:27 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12159
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 132 of 670 (420347)
    09-07-2007 2:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by jar
    09-06-2007 5:25 PM


    Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
    Jar writes:

    What exactly is the "Whole problem?"

    Lack of communion (communication) with God.?

    Look, I realize that our behavior counts more than our profession. I agree with you about that, even though critics would accuse you of advocating a "Works" Gospel over a Grace Gospel. (They probably have not read the Bible either! ;) ) Our buddy, Dr. Charles Stanley, had a good sermon today on Voiding The Grace Of God


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 134 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 133 of 670 (420349)
    09-07-2007 2:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
    09-07-2007 2:20 PM


    Re: What About Prayer?
    Prayer?

    Like mediation it is a form of concentration and self evaluation. If done properly it forces you to question in depth what it is you are asking and to search for potential solutions.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-07-2007 2:20 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by Phat, posted 09-07-2007 2:54 PM jar has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 134 of 670 (420350)
    09-07-2007 2:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
    09-07-2007 2:25 PM


    On communication
    Lack of communion (communication) with God.?

    Huh? Sorry but communication is a two way street. How do you know who is on the other end?

    Edited by jar, : No reason given.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by Phat, posted 09-07-2007 2:25 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12159
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 135 of 670 (420358)
    09-07-2007 2:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 133 by jar
    09-07-2007 2:27 PM


    Re: What About Prayer?
    Okay. So would you say that it is irrelevant whether God is listening and that our focus should be on what we are asking and why?
    Jar writes:

    Sorry but communication is a two way street. How do you know who is on the other end?

    Perhaps the question should be:

  • Is God Listening? Does It Matter?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:27 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 3:01 PM Phat has responded

      
  • Prev1
    ...
    78
    9
    1011
    ...
    45NextFF
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019