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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: To start off you said, "We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some." If that is really in response to what I had posted earlier, it could be an addendum, "Preach the Gospel, if necessary use words or pictures." But words or pictures are still only means of last resort. The primary way to preach the Gospel is to do; not say, not sing, not testify, but do. Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel.If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man, then when you tell me to teach how to discriminate and evaluate rather than merely parroting the Bible seems like sound advice.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel. So what? The issue is "Does a given interpretation stand up when tested against reason, logic and reality?"
If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man,... What value is there in telling someone that? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Well, Jar..I am in the process of reading Language In Thought And Action. So far, I have read the first chapter, and have highlighted a couple of points: To Wit:
Do the words we utter arise as a result of our thoughts, or are our thoughts determined by the linguistic systems we happen to have been taught? The vacuum tube and transistor have produced in the twentieth century a revolution in communication, a revolution perhaps more far-reaching in its effects than the invention of printing, which ushered in the Renaissance. I assume he means the microchip as well as the transistor! I am just getting started in this book, but what I have gleaned so far is that humans are unique apart from other animals in that Dogs, Cats, or chimpanzees do not, so far as we can tell, increase their wisdom, their information, or their control over their environment from one generation to the next. Humans do. Connecting with my pet topic of religion, lets take Jesus as an example and focus for my next question. Given that Jesus was in your opinion only human, did Jesus have to learn everything about his environment and culture by reading, testing, and deducing? (Like everyone else?) OR....does the following scripture have any merits and/or clues about His uniqueness?
NIV writes: So was he just a good student? Nothing more?
Mark 1:22-23-- The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. NIV writes: Matt 7:28-29-- When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. My point is that it appears from the text that Jesus may have had another source for his wisdom apart from the sources that most students have. Either that or he had really good teachers and/or a real desire to learn. I'll keep commenting on Language In Thought And Action as I read it, BTW. Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them. * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut! Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I assume he means the microchip as well as the transistor! No, he meant the transistor. I'm not sure what you mean by microchip. He was also wrong about the other animals. Since the book was originally written we have learned much. We now know that many of the other animals also "increase their wisdom, their information, or their control over their environment from one generation to the next." So that is not just a human trait.
Given that Jesus was in your opinion only human, did Jesus have to learn everything about his environment and culture by reading, testing, and deducing? (Like everyone else?) Yes. Just like everyone else. And I do not see where your quote even implies anything about a "source for his wisdom apart from the sources that most students have. " In fact it doesn't deal with either what he said or where he got his information, but only with his presentation, his delivery. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The revolution in communication surely would include the microchip, (used in cellphones and computers) is all I am saying. Hayakawa wrote the book B.C. (Before Computers) I'm not sure what you mean by microchip.Anyway, I am at the point in the book where it talks of Maps and Territories, which has always been one of your pet quotes! The quote came from Alfred Korzybski who is apparently the inspiration for much of Hayakawas semantics. Hayakawa writes:
As an example, Hayakawa talks of how most of our knowledge comes to us only in words, which are reports based on other reports that contrast with direct experience. (Secondhand information, in other words.) (Citizens) need to be systematically aware of the powers and limitations of symbols, especially words,if they are to guard against being driven into complete bewilderment by the complexity of their semantic environment. The symbol-----|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing symbolized The map--------|-------IS NOT-------|---the territory The word-------|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing I guess what he is saying is that learning about Tokyo is not the same as visiting and experiencing Tokyo.So...do you believe that Jesus is a symbol of God? (If so, it would mean that Jesus is not God. (As in God The Son) Edited by Phat, : edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Why? Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud. Many websites claim that Jesus was God..in a Trinitarian mindset.
here and here as well as shown in the answers to this Theological Test here...and my question is that why is this issue so controversial? I mean, why couldn't Jesus have been all God and still fully human otherwise? Why is this so contentious with you? Edited by Phat, : added
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud. one of my friends said this last night. do elaborate. i understand the premise that if he was really god he couldn't die or feel pain and the "sacrifice" is meaningless, but i'm not convinced this is a necessary assumption that god cannot feel pain, and that it is not possible that the flesh (the wholly man part) alone died and the spirit (the wholly god part) went to do his fight with death or what have you. you know already how completely unimportant to me this is, but i'm really curious about the reasoning. content hidden - this thread is a great debate between jar and phat, please do not respond - AA Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given. Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Many websites claim that Jesus was God..in a Trinitarian mindset. ... here and here as well as shown in the answers to this Theological Test here...and my question is that why is this issue so controversial? I don't know if it is controversial. But it is silly. If Jesus was God during his lifetime here on earth, then there doesn't seem to be any purpose or importance to his life. A God dying and then being resurrected is no big deal, theology is littered with such critters, and in addition, it tells us nothing of any use or value. Gods dying and being reborn tells us nothing about what happens to us, to humans. The fact that a god can do something says nothing about what human can do. The same thing applies to all of his behavior. It is nothing for a god to resist temptation, walk on water, do miracles. Really no big deal. The Jesus who is God and Man while here on earth is really little more than a carny sideshow freak.
I mean, why couldn't Jesus have been all God and still fully human otherwise? Yeah right. Sorry but that is just more of the palm the pea nonsense. There are attributes of a god that exclude being human and attributes of a human that exclude being god. Folk are free to believe such things, I just don't see how such beliefs can stand up to examination by reason, logic and reality. AbE: Let me expand on this a little. If someone can explain how someone can be wholly God and man at the same time, I am willing to consider it. BUT... being wholly man is a completely different lesson. First it is a real sacrifice instead of the little parody of "pay for our sins" normally presented. Being wholly man means that Jesus did not know for sure he would be raised, that there was life after death, whether what he said would be accepted. Being wholly man means that Jesus shat on himself, spit up, went through the pain of teething, had to learn to talk, learn to walk. Humans cannot kill a god, if so, then human are more powerful than the god. If the god can then be reborn, it is not really death but rather some kids game, "Bang bang, you're daid! What should we play now?" If Jesus is a God walking amongst us, what does that teach us? Edited by jar, : expand Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes:
If Jesus is a God walking amongst us, what does that teach us?Much of the support for my theological answers rests on the assumption of original sin so I can foresee the different theological approaches that you and I take in arriving at conclusions. Lets address some of your conclusions about religion:
Jar writes: Of course, nobody knows who is and is not saved...if such a reality exists. The whole idea of God creating a freewill Lucifer that chooses to become Satan and then is used as a temperer for mens souls sounds probable, perhaps, but I think that we are part of our future destiny by way of our behavior. So in that sense I agree with you.
A GOD that chooses who will be saved doesn’t make sense. A GOD that creates all and then goes through and picks and chooses who will be saved is just plain cruel and arbitrary and not something to be worshiped.Phat writes: I agree, but would maintain that humans become the decisions they make and are thus responsible for their path in life...irregardless whether or not God "foreknows" it... A GOD that wants to be worshiped is just too silly a thought.Phat writes: Maybe some picayune God might worry about what folk thought of Her, like the little girl who worries that her corsage might not be right, too big, or too small, or the guy that worries about his tie not being in style or that people think he looks funny, but GOD cannot be so insecure. Unless God knows that the discipline of worship is good for us.Phat writes: I don't imagine that God is insecure...it is that we are too secure without Him. Thats the whole problem! The idea of “Once saved always saved” just made no sense. That’s one of those simplistic ideas that gives folk an out. “Anyone who does something really wrong obviously wasn’t saved in the first place”, or so their argument went. That just felt way to much like a copout and just another example of mental gymnastics, a way of cheating and making excuses.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That God cared enough about us worms to intervene. Huh? What does that even mean?
I agree, but would maintain that humans become the decisions they make and are thus responsible for their path in life...irregardless whether or not God "foreknows" it... If God foreknows that someone will make the decisions that lead to being damned, and still creates that person, then that God is evil.
Unless God knows that the discipline of worship is good for us. I'm sorry but unless you can support that it means little. A God that wants to be worshiped is still a sick little critter.
I don't imagine that God is insecure...it is that we are too secure without Him. Thats the whole problem! What exactly is the "Whole problem?" Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Okay. So what is your attitude about prayer? Is it necessary and if not, is it beneficial, in your opinion? I heard a good sermon this morning from Chip Ingram-Read Great Books Part 2 A God that wants to be worshiped is still a sick little critter.He talks about how his prayer life went from sad to glad, and explains why he thinks it helped him.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Lack of communion (communication) with God.? What exactly is the "Whole problem?" Look, I realize that our behavior counts more than our profession. I agree with you about that, even though critics would accuse you of advocating a "Works" Gospel over a Grace Gospel. (They probably have not read the Bible either! ) Our buddy, Dr. Charles Stanley, had a good sermon today on Voiding The Grace Of God
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Prayer?
Like mediation it is a form of concentration and self evaluation. If done properly it forces you to question in depth what it is you are asking and to search for potential solutions. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Lack of communion (communication) with God.? Huh? Sorry but communication is a two way street. How do you know who is on the other end? Edited by jar, : No reason given. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Okay. So would you say that it is irrelevant whether God is listening and that our focus should be on what we are asking and why?
Jar writes: Sorry but communication is a two way street. How do you know who is on the other end? Perhaps the question should be:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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