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Author | Topic: What Is A Christian (Remix) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In an off topic rant in the Discussion of Moderation thread, Iano made this comment:
quote: I will never be so brash as to judge whom God accepts versus whom God does not accept. Jar is an Episcopalian . I would pay close attention in this link to the following three statements:
In this topic, I wish to discuss the attributes of what makes a Christian a Christian. I also want everyone to be familiar with the following concepts:
Inclusivism Exclusivism Common Grace Prevenient Grace Faith & Belief, please. Edited by Phat, : added link Edited by Phat, : added link again Edited by Phat, :
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I will never be so brash as to judge whom God accepts versus whom God does not accept. I'm not so sure that saying that someone isn't a Christian is the same as judging whether or not God accepts them. But that probably comes down to semantics. Deciding if someone is a Christian or not means that we are using some criteria, right? Isn't saying that someone isn't a Christian just saying that they don't meet you criteria for being one? It doesn't necessarily mean that you are saying that God doesn't accept them. Whadaya think? There's got to be some minimum requirements for being a Christian that Christians, in general, can agree on. For one, I'd say that believing in Jesus' divinity is one of those minimum requirements. If someone claimed to be a Christian but believed that Jesus was not God, wouldn't you lean more towards them not actually being a Christian? So I guess the question becomes "What is the criteria?".
In this topic, I wish to discuss the attributes of what makes a Christian a Christian. Yep. So, isn't that what they wrote creeds for? Here's the one Catholics use:
quote: I'd say that one is too strict for defining just Christian because it professes belief in the Holy Catholic Church. Maybe the Nicene Creed would be better? I still think that one is still too strict because you don't necessarily have to accept every single part of that creed to fit the general definition of Christian, IMHO. Which creed should be used to define Christian? Maybe we can nail down the minimum requirements in this thread and write a new creed As far as jar's beliefs, which is kinda rude to be discussing, I read him write that he thought that it didn't matter if Jesus was God or not. I think that being a Christian pretty much means that Jesus' divinity does matter, so its hard for me mix that belief with those of the True Christian(TM).
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
First:
As far as jar's beliefs, which is kinda rude to be discussing, I read him write that he thought that it didn't matter if Jesus was God or not. I think that being a Christian pretty much means that Jesus' divinity does matter, so its hard for me mix that belief with those of the True Christian(TM). Let's try to get it right. I have said two things. One that "The message of Jesus would be valid even if Jesus had only been myth and tales told around the campfire." I have also said that while Jesus lived here among us, I believe he was fully human. Last, look at the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. Made man. And catholic does not mean Roman Catholic, but rather inclusive. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: If someone claimed to be a Christian but believed that Jesus was not God, wouldn't you lean more towards them not actually being a Christian? No. "Christian", in the broadest sense, means "one who believes in Christ". "Christ" means "Annointed One". I don't see where it requires divinity. As I've said before, in other threads, to "believe in" somebody means to believe in what he said and what he did. It has little to do with what he was. So, to be a Christian is to do what Christ told us to do: to love our neighbours as ourselves. It does not mean, as Jesus Himself said, to proclaim our "belief" in Him by yelling, "Lord! Lord!" (And yes, I do believe that many Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. are more truly christian than many professing "Christians".) “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If someone is accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church, what else could they be called but a Christian?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
I'm just wondering. Do you think a mormon is a christian?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
As I've said before, in other threads, to "believe in" somebody means to believe in what he said and what he did. It has little to do with what he was. But Jesus claimed to be God. If you believe in what he said you believe that he was divine. Also, Jesus said that the only way to the father was through him (Jesus). So again, if you believe in what he said...
So, to be a Christian is to do what Christ told us to do: to love our neighbours as ourselves. It does not mean, as Jesus Himself said, to proclaim our "belief" in Him by yelling, "Lord! Lord!" Well, I was thinking more on the belief, itself, and not the proclaimation of it. I think the definition above is too loose. For example, I think that you have to at least be aware of Jesus to be a Christian. I wouldn't call a person who has never heard of Jesus but coincidentally lived by Christ's teachings a Christian. Even if, for all practical purposes, they were Christ-like, you can't fairly call them a Christian without them having knowledge of Christ.
(And yes, I do believe that many Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. are more truly christian than many professing "Christians".) Christianity and Islam, as well as Hinduism and atheism, are mutually exclusive. While Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. may be more Christ-like, they are not Christians, by definition.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm just wondering. Do you think a mormon is a christian? Its hard to say. I don't really know what they believe. I've heard some really strange things that they supposedly believe but I don't know if they're true. For example, I've heard that they put Joseph Smith above Jesus. If that's true then they are more Smithians than Chistians. Also, I've heard they are polytheistic, so... But again, I don't really know. I need some kind of criteria for what the minimum requirements are to be considered a Christian before I can go down the list and check off all the non-Christians.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If someone is accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church, what else could they be called but a Christian? Couldn't a non-Christian be accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Couldn't a non-Christian be accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church? LOL Kinda like being a Mason and a Moose? By definition if you are accepted as a member of some organization you are a member of that organization. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
A christian is someone who is stupid enough and ignorant enough to believe in 2000 year old fairytales.
A Christian is someone who is badly in need of a father figure to look after them. A Christian is someone who has not really grown up, they believe in all sorts of nonsense without a single shred of external evidence. A Christian is someone who corrupts the Scriptures of the Jews for their own ends. A Christian is someone who is unable to read properly, particularly the verses in the old and new testaments that prove Jesus was not the Messiah that the Jews were waiting on. A Christian is someone who psychologically abuses children by forcing their ignorant fantasies on to defenceless kids. A Christian is someone who gets upset when free thinkers point out the absurdities of Christianity. A Christian is someone who lives in a world of circular reasoning. A Christian is someone who believes that they are the only true Christian on Earth. That should clear things up. Edited by Brian, : more reasons are becoming obvious as the thread unfolds
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hey, you know what catholics are like, they'll change anything at all that they believe as long as it suits them.
Heck, how many popes have decreed that some earlier teaching was wrong. Didn't old 'Heil Hitler' Ratzenberger recently decide that 'limbo' was only a dance and not a hang out for unbaptised kids?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: But Jesus claimed to be God. If you believe in what he said you believe that he was divine. Some writers claim He claimed that. It isn't necessary to believe everything said about Him to believe in His message. Strictly speaking, you don't even need to believe He existed.
Also, Jesus said that the only way to the father was through him (Jesus). Jesus said that no man cometh unto the Father but by the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Way™ is the message, not the messenger.
... I was thinking more on the belief, itself, and not the proclaimation of it. The only way you can tell what somebody else believes is by what they proclaim and what they do. If what they do doesn't match what they proclaim, you have to question the proclamation, don't you?
Even if, for all practical purposes, they were Christ-like, you can't fairly call them a Christian without them having knowledge of Christ. "Christian" means "Christ-like".
Christianity and Islam, as well as Hinduism and atheism, are mutually exclusive. Nonsense.
While Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. may be more Christ-like, they are not Christians, by definition. That's your definition. I was using a more sensible one. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
CS writes:
Whether it's true or not depends on how you see it. They believe that Jesus visited America and left a whole new set of scripture here. Smith was suppose to be the prophet to proclaim this scripture. In other words, you could say that Smith supposedly had more up-to-date info.
For example, I've heard that they put Joseph Smith above Jesus. Also, I've heard they are polytheistic, so...
I don't know where you got this idea...
I need some kind of criteria for what the minimum requirements are to be considered a Christian before I can go down the list and check off all the non-Christians.
You said so yourself. Believe in Christ. They certainly believe in Christ. Otherwise, they wouldn't be knocking on my door trying to convert me.
[qs] Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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