Are we prisoners of sin

Furthermore, Eve was punished for something she was allowed to do, and the snake (maybe Lucifer) was punished for telling the truth.Is it too much to ask for fiction to be internally consistent?

I don't know if the particular interpretation being proposed here by ICANT is widely accepted in biblical literalist circles or not.But the inherent contradiction in ICANT's thinking - God's rules and punishments are unequivocal, clear and unambiguous to all. Yet the whole of human fate is the direct result of Adam having completely misinterpreted God's original rule as applied to Eve - Is plain for all to see.It only remains to be seen whether ICANT will choose to just ignore this contradiction, contort his original claims in an attempt to minimise the damage or acknowledge the flaw in his thinking and move on.

By accepting that faith in God and the his message (whether derived from the bible or otherwise) are not the products of "reason" or "reasonable conclusions" in the strict sense of the term "reasonable" (i.e. the product of reason and rationality). Maybe. Maybe not.Whether one thinks that the story does have a purpose or not will in most cases depend on ones religious inclinations.Even if one accepts that the story does have a a purpose (and I think I would accept that it does - at least to some extent) then the exact nature of that purpose and whether or not this purpose is the product of man or God both remain major bones of contention. The fact that the conclusions drawn from a particular proposition being true are considered undesirable should not be mistaken for evidence that the proposition is in fact untrue.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I think you miss the implications of identifying the Bible as mythology.Why would you want to "know" or "have a relationship" with a fictional entity?Do you have a desire to "know" or "have a relationship" with Zeus? Thor? Bob, little Jimmy's imaginary friend? Certainly. The same purpose all other mythological texts and oral traditions have had.Of course, if you're referring primarily to the moral teachings of the Bible, I'd suggest you find a better guide than the book that tells us to kill unruly children, stone adulterers, and considers wiping out all life on Earth to be a "morally just" action. If the Bible is nothing more than mythology, that's all we ever had in the first place, Phat.The assertions of the Bible, being completely unsupported by objective evidence, are nothing more than human speculation given weight by human gullibility, fear, and wishful thinking.And to tie this back to the topic, this means that of course we are not "prisoners of sin, because sin (as the concept spoken of in the Bible and defined as "disobedience to God") does not exist.All that actually exists (in the context of sin) is human ethics and morality. Sometimes we dress them up in superstition, or use pre-existing superstitions to pretend that our moral judgments have weight without any real rational basis (like the judgment that homosexuality is "evil" or "harmful," as Peg asserted but then refused to discuss). There is no objective reality to any moral construct, including "sin."

Actually the "forgiveness of sins" bit is added only in Matthew and is widely acknowledged as redactional. There are many accounts of Jesus preaching to crowds in the synoptics, including the Sermon on the Mount -arguably his longest sermon to his largest audience- and not once does Jesus feel the need to mention the 'atonement sacrifice' idea. Given that, as you believe, this was the lynchpin of his very existence on earth, you would have thought that this teaching would have come up at least once (and more than just a reference in passing) in the three separate accounts of his ministry. This raises the interesting question of "how can you tell which is which?" If there is indeed a Satan who possesses great power and opposes God what better way for him to discredit Jesus by sending a born-again miracle worker to 'complement' and 'spread' the word of Jesus? And how exactly can you tell whether something originates with God? - let me guess: if it's found in the bible then it's God's, if not then it's sorcery and witchery. Sorry, but that's a bad case of circular reasoning if I ever saw one.At the end of the day many people from different backgrounds and religions have been claimed to perform miracles and there's no way you can tell which ones are God-inspired and which ones aren't. This applies to Paul as much as to anyone else.

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

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The only penalty for christians is expulsion from the congregation. Christianity is unlike Judaism because it does not have a crime & punishment system. As i have said 50 times previously, Christ put an end to The Law Code and its punishments. It opened the way for forgiveness of sins thru Jesus instead.

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I assume you have read the OT. Did you not read any laws in there?

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That's what I said, Christianity does not have a legal system. Then you contradict again. Jesus put an end to the Law Code and its punishments, but then you that the laws for Christians are in the OT. Make up your mind or quit using catch phrases.So Christians are to follow the 613 Commandments found in the OT. According to you these are the rules that a congregation will judge unacceptable behavior. Good to know finally.

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I agree with you. Its a case of those in charge not following thru on the book they claim to teach.
True Christianity would allow such a person the opportunity to repent before any punishment was metted out. If the person did repent, then they would receive forgiveness. But if they did not, then they would have to be expelled from the congregation according to the bible.

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I know what the Bible says, but do the majority of congregations actually do that? I would say no. Mainly because the church loses money when they expel members. Not profitable to kick out the cash cow.

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I said the mosaic law required perfection because if you failed to live by some of those commands, the punishment was death. So if you didnt want to die, you had to fullfill the law 'perfectly' not just a little bit, but completely 100%.
Many people were put to death for failing to comply. Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, fornication, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying the death penalty. If you did any of these things you couldnt ask for forgiveness and mercy to be spared the death penalty. Thats why they had to fullfill the law perfectly. One slip up and they could have been put to death.

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You're still making things up. The Mosaic Law is not something that can require perfection. It isn't a living thing. It is a legal system. People are penalized only for the crime they commit just as we are today. Saying that people must follow "the law" 100% doesn't mean anything.Even though the Bible specifies death as a penalty for capital crimes, the death sentence was rarely carried out according to the Jewish Encyclopedia. Also note that according to Deuteronomy 17:6 -- At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. At the time of Jesus the Jewish nation weren't allowed to pass death sentences. Rome took over criminal jurisdiction from the Jews. So really before Jesus died the Jews didn't have the power to put anyone to death and if that is why Jesus died, then it was overkill.What you've shown me so far is that Christians are to follow the 613 Commandments in the OT, but Christians don't incur any death sentence for any misdeed that required it in the OT. If a Christian breaks any of these rules he does have to repent and ask God's forgiveness. If a Christian doesn't repent, then the congregation he belongs to is to expel him from their membership.You do realize that's the same setup the Jews have now without belief in Christ. I don't know if they expel people or not, but from what I can tell neither do Christian Churches.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

what am I wrong about?that the Mormons use a book other then the bible to base their religion on?

DevilsAdvocate, i really dont want to debate about other religions.The books of the Christian Greek sciptures are the writings of the Apostles and 1century congregation, so they should be the foundation of Christian belief.As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned. Joseph Smith was not one of Jesus Apostles. He introduced teachings that are contrary to Christian teachings. He also was the only eyewitness to the appearance of the Angel who apparently showed him a new scroll, afterwhich the Angel took the scroll back to heaven with him. So there were no eye witnesses to the event that he claims to have happened to him.Now, whether you believe the bible is inspired or not, the fact is that those who wrote the greek scriptures were eye witnesses of the Christ and everything they wrote could be confirmed by other eye witnesses.Unfortunately, Joseph Smith cannot provide any eye witness testimony to the event he described. Besides that, the teaching of the Mormon church are different to christian teachings and therefore its very hard to consider them to be christian in origin. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

The New Testament of full of this Christian teaching. there are multiple occurrences of their understanding of Christs sacrifice and how that sacrificed removed the need for the Mosaic law and how it formed the basis of approach to God and forgiveness of sins.
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Hebrews 9:22"Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place...24For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands,...but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. 25Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, ... But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.27And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time... 28so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation"
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1Peter1:18"For YOU know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that YOU were delivered 19But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s."
________________________________John 1:29 'The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: '"See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world"
_____________________________Hebrews 10:1 "For since the [Mosaic] Law has a shadow of the good things to come,... by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, 4for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.5Hence when he [Christ] comes into the world he says: "'Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ 7Then I said, 'Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’...9then he actually says: "Look! I am come to do your will." He does away with what is first [Mosiac Law] that he may establish what is second [New covenant]. 10By the said "will" we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
______________________________Romans 10:4"For Christ is the end of the [Mosiac] Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness"
___________________________________Romans 5:6"For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time....8But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"
__________________________Ephesians 2:15By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees,...16and that he might fully reconcile both peoples [gentiles & jews] in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit[/quote]_______________________________________________ Yeah im sure that many people who are involved in this sort of thing have good intentions and are sincere in what they are doing. But the Apostles showed that the miracles they were granted to perform (healings etc) would not continue as a permanent feature of Christianity. Its purpose to to 'Establish' christianity and give people are reason to believe at the time. Moses had to show the Hebrews proof that he was sent by God and he was permitted to perform miracles. Jesus was given power to perform miracles as proof of being sent by God and the first century christians were also granted such power to convince people of their legitimacy.but the Apostle Paul explained that these gifts would pass away once they were no longer needed. "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with." 1Corinthians 13:8-10.Now we have the complete bible and the knowledge is abundantly available so the miracles are no longer need to establish Christianity. It was established by the power of miracles back in the first century.So if someone is performing miracles, it cannot be power from God but another source.

im sorry for confusing you but you need to understand that the Mosaic Law and Christian laws are not the same thing.Remember too that Jesus and his followers were Jews who were followers of the Mosaic Law. But once Jesus had established Christianity, they no longer were bound to follow the Jewish system, a new system of worship and approach to God had been established. No. I never said that at all. Christians are not required to remain a part of Judaism. They were set free from the requirements of the Mosaic law. It does not matter that Christian laws are similar to the Mosaic law because we would expect them to be so because they are still Gods standards.
Its simply a matter of not being required to pay the penalties or requirements as prescribed in that law.

Yes, you are wrong about that. The LDS Church uses the BoM in conjunction with the Bible. This has even been quoted to you DIRECTLY FROM THE LDS SITE. I want you to name 3 things that the Book of Mormon CONTRADICTS the Bible on. (Not simply a different interpretation of the same perceived truth) I went to the LDS site, and you know what the three cornerstones I saw were?
"Teaching true doctrine"
"Faith in Christ"
"Strong Families"So, which of these is contrary to Christian beliefs? Wrong again. I can't believe how confident you can be in your perception of something you obviously have no knowledge of.
The Eight Witnesses of the Gold Plates
Once again, all I had to do was go to LDS.org, type in "witnesses of the plates", and I got this result on the FIRST LINE. Who have all been dead for 2,000 years. Not to mention the youngest gospel was written in 70AD, which would mean the writer would have been in his 70s. It is very unlikely that even the wealthiest survived to this age. Not to mention the apostles were eradicated within the NT.Edited by Michamus, : Minor BBcode correctionsEdited by Michamus, : Fixed Redundant Section

You are the one who first brought it up in your rebuttal to Legend as shown here: Message 200and If you do not want to debate about it, why did you bring it up in the first place? Sounds like you can't handle constructive critism and can't stand to be wrong. Just admit you were wrong, own up to it and move on. I make mistakes all the time and have several times admited I was wrong even on EvC. If you can prove me wrong, I will concede and move on to something else. The first part of your assertion is subject to critique (no one is 100% sure the authenticity of all the authors who wrote the books of the NT). This is a subject for another thread. I thought you did not want to debate about 'other' religions?And how do you know all the books of the Bible belong in the Bible? And what about the inconsistencies and contradictions within the Bible itself? So should you not question all the books from which the Bible itself is composed? Should it not be held to the same standard as you do other religious books i.e. the Book of Mormon? BTW, neither was Paul considered an Jesus' apostle by Jesus (and no one but himself witnessed his conversion mono e mono by Jesus). Paul/Saul was a self-acclaimed apostle (he called himself the apostle to the gentiles) and many of Jesus apostles/disciples were at first skepticle of his eyewitness story of his conversion. So did Paul. The Apostle Peter disputed with Paul several times as describe in his writings i.e. Galations 2:11-14. Same with Paul. There were no eyewitnesses to his conversion by way of vision from Jesus himself (caveat, there were supposedly some servents with him, according to Paul's story, but they did not see the vision from Jesus as described in Acts 9). Peg, you really do need to conduct some background research before you talk about things you have little knowledge of (just enough to get you in trouble). However, you are partially wrong (and partially right). Yes, according to his story there were no witnesses during his first few visions with Moronai, however, Joseph Smith did supposedly have "eyewitnnesses" in later visions and showings of the golden plates. First with 3 and then later with 8 witnesses as shown here: also Too me, this is all religiously fabricated but how much of the Bible do you know is not fabricated? Cas in point, Jim Jones and his following. Why do you think that so many people still believe in miracles and send millions/billions of dollars to the likes of Benny Hinn and the like. Appeal through emotion. If you want something to be true enough it will become true for you, whether it is Christianity, Mormonism or anyother religion out there.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So i didnt bring it up...Legend did! lolAnd as you said, it was a rebuttal in defense of the authority of the Bible and not specifically about the Mormon church...just as Legends comment was a rebuttal about one of my comments about the Bible. So because my experience with the Mormans has been different to your experience, then I am wrong? Ok. Perhaps I just spoke to the wrong mormons on the wrong day. Of course the bible books should be questioned for authenticity. But that was done centuries ago and as a result we have the bible cannon. And yes we should continue to question our translations and ensure that they are in line with the original language texts also. And when it comes to christian Faiths, we should compare their teachings with those found in the Bible and if the teachings of the church are out of harmony with the bible then we need to go find another church.

1. "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body." JosephF. Smith, president from 1901 to 1918the Bible teaches that the parents of all humans was Adam & Eve, fleshly humans, not spirits.2. "God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Joseph Smiththe Bible teaches that The Almighty God is a spirit person and nowhere does it say that God was once a man.3. "Mormon Theology states that all humankind existed as spirit beings in heaven before coming to earth. The purpose of their coming to earth is so that they can be tested and, if successful, be exalted, that they may eventually become gods themselves with worlds of their own."The bible teaches that man was made from the dust of the earth. He did not exist until God made him.Its not hard to see why a book other then the bible was needed to promote these ideas. They are not biblical.

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im sorry for confusing you but you need to understand that the Mosaic Law and Christian laws are not the same thing.

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Remember too that Jesus and his followers were Jews who were followers of the Mosaic Law. But once Jesus had established Christianity, they no longer were bound to follow the Jewish system, a new system of worship and approach to God had been established.

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ABE: I'm not confused, but your statements are contradictory and sometimes fanciful. Don't you see the problem?Christianity today has no legal system, so it has no laws. It never was a theocratic nation. At the most Christianity has commandments or principles the members are to abide by.Jesus was a Jew, imagine that! Jesus did not establish Christianity. He was a Jew till the end and his disciples continued to be Jews. "The Way" was a sect of Judaism and they were bound by the Jewish System. All Jews were still bound by the Jewish system. The Gentiles that Paul recruited were not bound by the Jewish system. According to Jews they were bound by the Noahide Laws. (Acts 15:12-21) The Jews were not excused from following Mosaic Laws by the disciples of Jesus. They kept the Mosaic Laws until they died.If you read the history of the Jews or the history of Christianity, you will find that the Church of Jerusalem was destroyed. Since Gentiles never were under the Mosaic Law, a less confusing way to present what "laws" Christians follow would be to say they follow the Noahide Laws, instead of saying the Mosaic Law is done away with but we follow some anyway. Jesus didn't do away with any part of the Mosaic Law.So Christian Gentiles never were held accountable under the Mosaic Laws. Jews do consider Gentiles to be held accountable by their God under the Noahide Laws.The penalties applied to the Noahide Laws depends on the justice system set up by the Gentiles. Only extreme murder today in my country is possible grounds for the death penalty and not necessarily in all states. Also if we break a law in our justice system todeay we do suffer the penalty if we are found guilty.The death of Jesus did not save us from the penalties of breaking the law.All humans are not "prisoners of sin", since the majority are quite capable of following the laws of the land.Edited by purpledawn, : Spelling correction and added statement.Edited by purpledawn, : Signature

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz