coded information in DNA

Hi bluegenes, But this is today. The laws of nature are well understood. We know they can account for fire and nuclear power. The physics and chemistry of DNA are also very well understood. This *IS* the problem. And yet again... Emphasis mine.That's pretty clear. Can't sqweeze water out of a dry towel.-WordEdited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hi Tag, As of yet, we observe none exists. Just as of yet, we observe that neither energy nor matter can be destroyed. Neither are proven impossible, there is just simply no evidence to the contrary.-WordEdited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Tag, All communication systems are subject to mutations, according to the laws of probability. Thats why Ethernet and IP/TCP have error correction / redundancy features. Yes, DNA has error correction / redundancy features also. Good point.-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hello lyx2no, And what accounts for the square holes being arranged in the precise order which spells out the complete assemblage instructions to build a space shuttle? Chance?-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Dr, Hardware does not give rise to software Dr.-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

bluegenes, Precisley.3 - The genetic code, therefore, cannot be designed. ( by creatures derived from DNA )Which is why the only available explnantion left, is, an uncaused cause of all that has been caused. It's inferred. The only current option left, an Uncaused cause. -Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bluejay, Gotcha, thanks buddy. It's much easier since I'm dealing with so many questions to do them all together, but I'll do them seperately if it helps.-WordEdited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.

Tag, You don't have to, no. Would you think, if you observed "Every knee will bow, and every toungue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord," written out in pebbles was a natural occurence?-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hello Rahvin, Actually they are almost identical..."The book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life is written by Hubert Yockey, the foremost living specialist in bioinformatics. The publisher is Cambridge University press. Yockey rigorously demonstrates that the coding process in DNA is identical to the coding process and mathematical definitions used in Electrical Engineering. This is not subjective, it is not debatable or even controversial. It is a brute fact:Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies. (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)"-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hey welcome back onifre!Hey gotta run guys, peace.-Word

Mornin Percy, Notice what "they" refers to here, the new conded information. Which did not have it's origin in the laws of nature, but someones mind. Yes the construction certainly does obey the laws of nature (working through someones hands physically arranging them etc.) Show me one example of a information comunication system that does not arise from mind. Besides that of DNA. Just one. Correct, of which none are known to produce coded information systems. That's precisely the problem. Observing DNA operate does not explain the origin of the coded information in the same way that "observing" a computer operate does not explain the sofware running it. Yes, we can know computers obey the laws of physics. Which says nothing about the code running it.You postulate that there are properties and processes of which we're yet unaware, and perhaps that is so, but again, you need evidence.The coded information, that we never observe originating from the laws of physics and chemistry. Exactly, that's why the Designer must be uncaused Himself. There must ultimately be some uncaused first cause. An eternal original cause. If not we run into a infinite regress of causes. That's why humans ans aliens etc., cannot be an option. God is the only available option at this time, simply by reason alone.-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gentlemen,Ok, it looks like we are getting of track again.Lets start from the beginning.Even if we somehow had all the necessary molecules which are required to produce life, it still wouldn't solve the problem of assembling these materials into functioning proteins and DNA.We now know functioning proteins require a lenghty and specific sequential arrangment of amino acids. Just as any meaningful English sentense, paragraph or book requires a specific sequencial arrangment of letters.Obviously this creates a real problem for any kind of chemical evolution. Amino acids on their own do not make proteins any more than letters on their own make sentenses, paragraphs or books. We know that English letters are directed by human intelligence to produce meaningful text. Likewise, amino acids are specifically sequenced as dictated by information encoded inside the DNA molecule.This finding, raises the question of the ultimate origin of this encoded information. Many now concider this information problem the "Holy Grail" of the origins of life. As Bernd Olaf Kuppers said..."the problem of the orgin of life is clearly basically equivalent to the problem of biological information."Theres basically three naturalistic explanations for the origin of information. Chance, prebiotic natural selection and chemical necessity.Chance was once thought to give account for biological information, but not many hold to this view now. Especially since we have now come to appreciate the sequential specificity of proteins and nucleic acids. As A. Graham Cairns-Smith says:"Blind chance is very limited. Blind chance can produce low levels of cooperation, exceedingly easily, the equivalent of letters and small words, but it becomes very quickly incompetent as the amount of organization increases. Very soon indeed long waiting periods and massive material resources become irrelevant."If you stil hold out for a "happy frozen accident" as Mr. Dawkins puts it, then that's your choice. A miracle is a miracle.The natural selection scenario suffers the same problems. Begging the question, in order for natural selection to take place self replication must already be assumed. But this is the very thing that needs explained. Natural selection only selects from what chance has already produced.Some suppose chemicals having certain affinities for other chemicals might be able to account for information. That maybe the laws of nature plus chemical attraction could account for information in DNA. Chemicals having self-ordering properties such as salt. So to maybe amino acids with special affinities for each other might order themselves to form proteins etc. But ironically Dean Kenyon who wrote the book himself, Biochemical Predestination, now says such theories are incompatible with empircal findings.The problem can be seen just by examining the DNA molecule itself. DNA depends on several chemical bonds. Theres the bond between the sugar and phosphate molecules which forms the two twisting backbones. Then you have the bond that bonds the base pairs to the sugar-phosphate backbones itself. But there is no bond between the base pairs running along the spine of the double helix from one end to the other. Left or right, there is no bond one base to the next. But this is precisely where the coded message resides.The base pairs can bond to any site along the sugar-phosphate backbone. Just like magnet letters on a metal surface. They bond to the metal surface itself (the sugar-phosphate backbone), but they can be placed in any order. No one spot is preferred over anyother by chemical attraction. All four bases can bond to any site. So sequential bonding affinities don't account for the order of the base pairs.Right where the specific sequencing is observed, which creates the coded information, is right where there is no speacial affinity one for the other.The information contained in DNA is both specified and complex in the same way as a meaningful english sentense is. Just as lines of code in computer software is. But the information of these do not originate from the chemistry of ink or the physics of magnetism, but from a source completely outside / independent of either.Likewise, in the same manner, the information in DNA is also independent of the properties of the medium which hold it. Becuase the chemical bonds do not determine for the arrangment of the base pairs.So if the properties of the medium itself don't account for the origin of information, then what does? All of human observation tells us that information systems, languages and codes, always come from an intelligent source.As of now, observing that all naturalistic explanations have failed to explain the origin of biological information, intelligence stands alone as the *ONLY* known process to produce such information intense systems.We can observe the past actions of intelligence even if we can't observe direct intervention of said intelligence. Here in Ohio we can see a flower arrangment saying "Welcome to Ohio." We know intelligence was involved even if we never saw them planted and arranged thus.There are many branches of science which look for these signs of intelligence and make inferences based on such today. Archeologist rightly infer intelligence when observing inscriptions on the Rosetta Stone. SETI searches for signals containing information out in space. But as of yet we have found no information bearing signals from space. But at the same time, right under our noses, we have discovered information in DNA. Thus we are justified to infer intelligence.But you guys will say it's simply a God-of-the-gaps fallacy since science can't explain it yet. But heres the catch, I'm not infering design simply because there is no naturalistic explanation. But *BECAUSE* DNA infact *DOES* manifest the very thing that intelligently designed information systems have, coded information and language!Intelligence has powers that nature does not. When we observe effects that we know by empirical observation are only the effects of intelligence, we are justified to infer intelligence even if we were not there to see it. Since DNA contains that which we know by 100% of human observation, is *ALWAYS* the product of intelligence, then intelligence, as of now, stands as the best explanation for what we observe in DNA.-WordEdited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hello there Percy, Yes, it mimics real intended coded information. This falls within the probabilty of chance, especially given the fact there are already intelligently designed letters to begin with. The initial conditions which allow three English letters to fall out spelling the word "yes," in the first place, are themselves the product of design. A box full of English letters in the form of cereal does not arise naturally. Until you can make the distinction between information and coded information systems you will never understand what is being argued here Percy. Yes anything that happens gives off "information" just by it's very state. It tells us something about itself, or possibly something about what it may have encounted. But there is no code intended to be sent and decoded. No intended information.All the examples you continue to offer are only information about themselves or other things they have come in contact with in some fashion. There is no decoder that this information is intended for. This information means nothing until we assign meaning to it. In DNA, there is real coded information, a real signal which is intended to be successfully decoded and implemented. And this language and communication takes place if we are there or not, all on it's own.Just like the garage door example here... Message 108DNA being a coded information system is the evidence Percy. Just as matter and energy are never observed to be destroyed or created, coded information systems are NEVER observed to be the product of processes absent of intelligence. NEVER. Unless you have an example? And again, it is those very properties and processes which are the problem Percy. Again from Yockey... I'm sorry Percy, but what part of that don't you understand? You are saying blood can come from a turnip. He's saying but turnips don't contain blood. You are saying, but they must, because look, there is blood. You are again begging the question. "All that we observe is natural, since we observe DNA, it has a natural origin." This is the QUESTION we are trying to determine. If we knew this, there would be no need for this very forum. The coded information system contained in biological life ought to tell you, "hey this doesn't jive!" Reason alone using the scientific method of induction, points to an original uncaused Encoder as the only available exlplanation, at this time. Of course one is free to wait for some other explanation. Religion / theology, has nothing to do with this argument.-WordEdited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.Edited by WordBeLogos, : No reason given.

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hey onifre, How do we know that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed? Because we don't see it occuring today? The question that we can’t answer, is where the code came from in the first place. The question of where the molecule came from and how it operates is an important one but not relevant to this discussion. The distinction has to be made between the physical molecule and the imaterial information. People keep trying to explain how the paper and the ink may have come together thus producing the book. But this is not the question..the question is where did the story line come from?? This argument cannot identify the personal characteristics of God. It simply leaves God as the only logical possibility, because no natural causes are known, and a infinite regress of finite intelligent causes is not rational. So the only available explanation left, is an uncaused, conscious, metaphysical designer. Which ironically fits the description of the biblical God. I have no problem with codes that can change *ONCE* there is one to start with. I believe evolution is an engineered process. I believe the beneficial mutations are by design. Protozoa can splice its own DNA into over 100,000 pieces and rearrange them, this is not some random or haphazard process, this is a highly engineered process. -Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Onifre, All finite things have a cause. The only logical conclusion is, that there must ultimately be some original Uncaused (eternal) cause of all finite things which themselves have been caused. If not, you run into an irrational infinite regress of finite causes and effects. Because DNA is finite. As you have rightly said, there was a time it didn't exist. Therefore, it can't be the uncaused cause.-Word

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.