'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

Ditto. This ofcourse is the very thing that Christ addressing. While I do not agree, that Pentecost is the second coming, he is partly correct, as Mark 9:1 indicates Paul puts it this way."He has translated us out of the power of darkness, into the KINGDOM of his dear Son."The only place to be saved out of darkness, is of course the Church, the Church is the Kingdom.ICANT is correct in his assesment, in the respect that the kingdom was here in a SENSE before the actual establishment of that described by CHRIST in Matt 16Christ in Matt 16 and Acts 2, Speaking of the Church and Kingdom, he uses the words in connection with each other, speaking of building the Chruch in Matt 16, and then in the same chapter he then he tells Peter, I will give to you Peter the keys to the KINGDOM (not literal keys), on that Pentecost he preaches the first Gospel sermon after Christ's departure, to show entrance to the Kingdom or Chruch Notice how he uses the words Kingdom and chruch, interchangeablyBefore these events they collectively were told to go to the city to wait for power from on high. Peter however, is the first to speak and uses the figurative keys to show entrance to the kingdom or chruch as Christ described it in Matt 16 verse 27 refers to a time future, the actual second coming, when he will come as a judge, in verse 28, christ begins to be less general and specifies about events that were about to happen.He might have have said it this way, Even now, I say before that time, (second literal coming), some standing here will not die until they see me coming in the kingdom of God to be established presentlyFor a more complete exposition on the topic the Kingdom/Church question, I would refer you to the Neal-Wallace debate held in the thirties, Where Bro. Foe E Wallace,Jr., dismantles the doctrine of premillennialism. You can find it at Amazon books or by typing his name into the search engine. It is a very extensive and exhaustive, exposition of that topic.Christ said "My Kingdom is not OF this world", he did not say it wasnt IN the worldAs ICANT stated earlier he was speaking to his deciples, they therefore would have understood the nature and source of the POWER they witnessed that day, especially since Peter and the others told them, the source of that power. They therfore, would have recalled Christ's words about seeing him come in power.I would disagree that the transfiguration could explain in detail what christ was speaking of in Mark 9:1. I would say that Matt 16 and Acts 2 would be more specific illustrations for the literalness of his words.Purchase or read that discussion'debate, its the best one Ive ever seen. Another not so complicated is the Nichol-Bradley debate.
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Can you remember when and where else this happened?Amen, if you are a brother in Christ, to what Peter testifies to in these verses and you may be correct that it is indirectly related to the Kingdom, as a part of his kingship overall. But no mention by Peter of the kingdom directly in these instances. Possibly, if it had such a meaning in that instance (the transfiguration)and this is what Christ was refering to directly in Matthew, he would have related the two in his comments.Remember this confirmation also happened at his baptism, maybe not in such a dramatic fashion, distinquishing himself from the law and the prohets, but the words were basically the same from the Father.The is no doubt that the church is the kingdom, so to argue excally when the kingdom was established may run into a bit of semantics. Some like ICANT will see it way before Pentecost, others will see it offically at that time, even others yet in the future, but thats another topic.Its simply to symbiotic in nature to make such sharp distinctions. Even if one can find timelines so to speak, here and there the subject matter and character of purpose outweigh any such considerations. Atleast that is how I see it, you may have a different opinion Not at all. but then so may other illustrations in his life could be considered the fullfillment of this prophecy. The resurrection and his being seen of 500 people would come to my mind. Angels actually confirmed and aided in that instance. What do you think?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

No No Peg, I was not indicating that his baptism was what he was referncing, only to indicate that so many times and instances in his lifetime his Messiahship and kingship could be refernced to fulfill his words in the OP passage.Further to indicate that if the transfiguration could be removed as a candidate, then so many others, could be cited as a fulfillment, espcially that of of Matt 16 and Acts chapter 2. the kingdom parables are a very good indication that the kingdom was an earthly as well heavenly fulfillment. The words of the parables place the setting of the kingdom in both places at the sametime. Certainly for some the now the heavenly kingdom is now a reality and for us that have not passed on it is a reality here on earth."He has translated us out of the power of darkness, into the kingdom of his dear son" Present tense. Certainly there is a sense in which the kingdom is eternal or everlasting in character and there is very much a sense in which it was temporal, so the prophecy was fulfilled in a literal way.Example, if Peter did not use figurative keys on pentecost to show entrance to the new system or kingdom, what were the keys that he used? I think it is to easy to miss the refernce in Matt 16 along with the interchangaable verbage. Both this example and the mount may have some significance to his kingship and kingdom. Not to mention and certainly not least, the resurrection itself. Why prey tell would the body of Christ be a place of trouble?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Your a funny guy ICANT. But remember that day he had many more words after they believed, dont you remember? abrahams actions in obedience to God are what made his belief acceptable, it was not simply a mental exerciseEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Christs Church, the perfect body MADE perfect in Christ. We are made perfect in Christ Jesus before God Yes, I will explain You thinking in human terms Peg. The kingdom of God can be minitered by the body of Christ (Church) if Christ is the sustainer and minister. We are made perfect in Christ but we all still allowed to make all the mistakes above mentioned by yourself. Yes we are required to strive for maturity and avoid these things mentioned by yourself, but the Church is still perfect in and throught the blood of Christ."He is both the just and the jutifier" Romans 3.Watch these words from the Apostle John Its not a license to sin (Romans 6) but it is a perfect system made and continued perfect in ChristA perfect HUMAN system is not required for the Church to be perfect or it to be or not be the kingdom of God on earth. It is both perfect and the kingdom on earth now, through Christ Jesus and his blood"He has translated us out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son" Col 1:13If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP one with another AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CLEANSESS US FROM ALL SINChrist's Chruch (kingdom) will be perfect regardless of my stupidity, because it is not dependent upon my ignorance and weakness but Christs sacrifice and his sustaining bloodYou limit the blood and purpose of Christs Church and kingdom PegEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Fix quote box.

Peg writesMatthew 16: Only a person paying no attention at all, would miss the simple point that the church is the kingdom in these passages. Jesus clearly uses the words interchangably, then tells Peter he will give him the keys to introduce entrance to this kingdom/Church in Acts chapter 2 here Peter uses the authority and the keys promised earlier. he the goes on: Pay close attention to verse 47. the lord added, not man, to the church daily such as should be saved. peter uses the figurative keys to show entrance to the kingdom which is the church.It could not be any simpler.In Col 1:13 Paul says he HAS, (present tense), translated us out of the power of darknes into THE KINGDOM of his dear SonEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box.

Pegster, only the merely obvious in necessary, not the overly obvious. It should be obvious to even the casual reader that the greek word for church initially means 'a called out group' for what ever reason. Changing it, to use the word number, or church, or group, does not change the meaning when Jesus said I will build my Chruch. if you you use the word number or church it means the same thing. The group is not important, what and whos group it is does matterThe greek word only has menaing to a group, the context will decide what type of group. In this case, it was that failure Jesus' group that he spoke about building, that is under consideration. You streching to avoid an obvious point that Jesus uses the words, church, group, number and kingdom interchangably and within the same paragraph and nearly in his same breath. This is silliness to avoid an obvious point. The Church or any church is not a building w/ a witty sign in front of it. Unless it is one of those delightful sentiments like, "Sign is broken, get message inside", or "If you think its hot now, just wait" So what group, NUMBER or kingdom were they being translated into PRESENTLY, that took them out of darkness. So if it was Jesus' group does it matter if the writer refers to it as church, since that is what the root word means. Really Peg!!!!Romans 14:17 Here Paul speaking to, for, and about the Number, the Church, the group, the called out, describes it as the kingdom of God, using the terms interchangably, describing what it is at its heart, verses some physical aspect. Paul in his writings seems to reflect and echo Christs words in Matthew 16. Imagine that, they were on the same page.
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G, just a quick question. What KEYS, to what kingdom, do you suppose Christ gave to Peter in Matt 16?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Just a quick question here and it is not my wish to start a big discussion on it. Just wanted to get your perspectiveWhat keys and to what kingdom do you suppose Jesus gave to Peter, as he states in Matt 16EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Possibly, we however understand the church to be the kingdom and that he used to those keys to show entrance into that kingdom on the day of pentecost.With the new covenant, the new system of obeying God, hence he said, "Repent and be baptized for the remmission of sins""And there was added to the church daily such as should be saved"I think it easily explains christs words that "there be some standing here............."EAM

The resurrection and Pentecost. Most want the coming to be a visible manifestation of Christ. That is not necessary for it to be fulfilled. Atleast that is my take on itEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Jaywill sorry to interupt. Would you read post 146 in the fellowship thread. If you do not have time I will understandEAM

So in the final analysis, it could be determined by what one considers the kingdom, or whether the kingdom has come yet, correct? Or am I on the right track?DBEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.