'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

I will not be refering to the apochryphal Gospel of Peter. Or that of Mary or of Judas or of Thomas. A discussion on the Canon of the New Testament is another discussion. This is more textural criticism which I would not be getting into here. But if you wish you can take the 21rst chapter that I quoted and specify exactly which verses of the 25 verses you know for a fact are not that of the original writer, enumerate them.If you cannot isn't it easy just to make a vague claim that you know some verses from the 25 are not to be trusted as originally written ? How do I know you are not simply picking what you theologically do not agree with and saying "John never wrote that"? Let's play it your way. Though I do not agree with you, I'll humor you a bit. Let's consider ONLY Matthew chatper 24.The question is: "How many years did Jesus specify would take place from the time of His discourse about His second coming until that coming?"Here's your chance to put the argument to rest. Show me in Matthew the number of years.5 years? 16 years? 22.8 years? 58 years? 350 years? 1000 years? 1642 years? 2881 years? 2000 years? 7000 years?Which verse specifies the number? (Just Matthew 24 now).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Heretic, I only meant that I had nothing more really to reply to you as I think my replies have been adaquate to refute your argument.I'll give you one last shot. Let us say that generation in Matthew 24:34 gives the timeframe.The generation will not pass away until the second coming of Christ ?Okay?Let us further assume that by "generation" Jesus means people living while He is living. I do not believe that that is exactly how Jesus is using the word generation in that passage, but for argument's sake let us assume that He means His contemporaries.Okay?Now tell me, ROUGHLY, no specific number, no specific YEAR ... ABOUT when was the end of that generation ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

They wanted to be faithful to what Jesus really said. False propogandists would have concealed or excluded difficult sayings or potentially embaressing sayings.They candidly included sayings of Jesus which could be problematic because the truth mattered to them rather than spin.They also recorded that some of Jesus' relatives did not believe His claims. They also recorded that He had been accused of being crazy by His own family. They also recorded that He was thought to be demon possessed or a drunkard.They also included potentially encremenating information that they all forsook Him. They wrote that even their leader Peter denied Him three times. They also recorded that He scolded His own close disciple Peter and called him "Satan".They recorded that women were the first to see Him in resurrection and not men. They recorded that none of them had the courage to give Him a decent burial. A stranger had to do it.All this and many more pieces of information are problematic to anyone trying to start a major religion. The inclusion of difficult teachings of Jesus, and potentially embaressing information to their cause, testifies to the candidness of the report.Where they could have slanted the story to put themselves and Jesus in the best light, they did not. This convinces many of us that the account is truthful. Whether one sees the second coming of Christ as doomsday or a glorious new beginning depends on where one stands.Whereas some unbelieving and unrepentent sinner sees only imminent doom in Christ's coming, a repentent believer sees the glorious arrival of the kingdom of God - peace, justice, love, the doing away of scarcity, and the wonderful reign of the Son of God over the globe.Do you see His coming as the "doom" of the end the world or as a glorious new day when wickedness is abolished ?How you view His coming depends upon through what perspective you view the reign of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Then you admit that Jesus was using Himself as the paramater.He did not remain dead but rose from the dead and lives forever.Jesus rose from the dead after three days of being crucified. So those still alive when He resurrected would be of His generation. So those born on the day of His resurrection would be of His generation. And those born from any time after that throughout the last 2000 some years would also be contemporary to the living and resurrected Jesus.Christ is resurrected and living today. So people of today would also be of His generation. If Jesus used generation in that sense as long as He lives they live during His years.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What is preventing you from living up to your own moral code ?I would like to ask you if you indeed do live up to your own moral code ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Most of the biographical things I read are in the realm of music. I am not a formal theologian.Think of the contemporary political campaign and endorsements. Not having a paper trail of embaressing life details is very important.I think the instances of people admitting to or exaggerating their own bad behavior occurs in biographical books which are exalting such negative behavior in the first place. The biographer of an outlaw or criminal by one of his contemporary appreciators might want to similarly bad.The Gospel writers are trying to portray a man the believed was the Son of God. Yet they included instances:1.) A town prostitute caressed His feet with her hair (Luke 7:36-39) You would expect that the recording of that incident was more out of the playbook of the political enemies of Bill Clinton.2.) John comments that the Word was God (John 1:1). Yet John does not fail to record that Jesus Himself said "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).The potential for John to sabatoge his own theological thesis is tremendous. Yet he wrote it faithfully.3.) The Gospel writers want to portray Jesus as the blessed Messiah of the Jews. But they record Him being hung on a cross. They probably well knew that anyone hanging on a tree was cursed according to Deuteronmy 21:23.Were they severly in need of lessons on starting a new Jewish sect ?4.) Mark records that Jesus seemed unable to perform miracles in His own hometown (Mark 6:5).That could be scandelous, that even at home He did not demonstrate convincing proof of His divinity. Why would Mark admit such a thing ?5.) Matthew records that Jesus cursed a fig tree (Matt. 21:18). That surely could be used by detractors as proof of the selfish wildness of Jesus.6.) Matthew records that Jesus said the Father knew something that He did not know (Matt. 24:36). That could be a scandal to a new religion portraying that the Father was completely pleased with the Son.7.) The Gospel writers included sayings which are practically impossible to perform: "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mattt. 5:28)This is a very difficult saying of Jesus. Which one of the disciples could claim to be a successful disciples of Jesus in this realm ?The gospels include so much fodder for a prosecuting attorney to persuade a jury that the disciples were wrong that it is amazing that they wrote it down voluntarily. The point here is that in the end we have to decide which is more convincing - the power and person of God or the smarts of human beings to concoct a convincing sounding story. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Let me rephrase what I wrote which was originally: I do not intend to say that the Gospels are to be believed SOLELY because the writers sometimes put themselves in a bad light. The evidence of candidness may be derived from their willingness to do so. That is all.And one other footnote. Jesus loves the sinner. And the conviction of God is never simply to make a person feel bad. It is the accusation of Satan meant to person to feel a nagging and vague sense of worthlessness.God is not interested in people groveling on the floor crying about their sins. God is not interested in your begging for forgiveness.He is interested in your agreeing with Him about sin and the Savior. For what it is worth to you, you can stand up like a man and simply confess that you are a sinner and cannot help yourself.God is only interested in you believing and agreeing with His salvation in Christ. He doesn't take pleasure in our groveling of self pitying.I believe into Christ. And God looks upon me as if I had never committed any sin at all. In fact, I have already been judged, on Calvary. Justice was imputed on my behalf in the death of Christ.I know I am verbose. I know I am preachy. And I know this is off the subject matter. But your innuendo of self pity and morbid remorse does not reflect to me the proper spirit of believing the Gospel message.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Please point out to me the passages in the synoptics which were the efforts to re-write the text:I am especially interested in the ones which effect these beliefs:1.) Jesus was the Son of God.2.) Jesus lived a sinless life.3.) Jesus died on the cross for the sinners.4.) Jesus rose from the dead to be Lord and Savior.Which are the passages re-written latter that invented these concepts? Five or six of your STRONGEST examples will suffice.Don't save your strongest for latter. Tell me of them up front, first.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That is better then saying it will never happen.
But the future is not totally in our hands.The Bible uges us "Seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near." Let me put it this way. If I had life to live over again I would only ask that I turned to the Lord Jesus sooner. Then I would have more time to enjoy His love and His indwelling presence.Saying "Not in the forseeable future, though, is better than saying, NEVER." Aside from the things which are good and bad, there is a kind of force, a kind of nature compeling us to do what we hate, and restraining us from doing the good that we love.Behind the "things" there is a power operating in us. So some say we are not sinners because we sinned. Rather we sin because we have this sin nature causing us to.If you remove the weeds from the surface it seems that they grow back. Something also in man is "sprouting" up this sinful behavior. Getting to the root of the problem means a cure deeper than the symptoms. That is very good. You are an upstanding and ethical person.But are you glorious? Jesus was not only good. Jesus was gloriously good. He was good with a radiance and splendour which is glorious.The Gospels says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.And if you should live absolutely perfectly from this day onward, what about the failures of the past ? What will erase the record before God of the past transgressions even if you should be gloriously righteous from today on ?Imagine a shop of vases where an earthquake has occured. All of the vases are lying around broken in pieces.Some are broken into a hundred pieces. Some are borken into fifty pieces. Some are broken into twenty pieces. Some into ten, seven, or even five pieces.Let's say some vases are broken into only TWO large pieces. Now the ones broken into TWO large pieces may say "Well, at least I am not as bad as that one over there. He's broken into twelve shattered pieces. I am only broken into TWO pieces."The one broken into fewer pieces may seem to be in better condition then the others. But the point is that they are ALL broken. None are whole. All have lost their function and ability to do what they were designed to do.In the same way, there are sinners who can compare themselves to other sinners and say "Well, I am not as bad as this other sinner." But in the eyes of God "All have sinned". All have fallen short of the glory of God.We need not to stand up next to each other. We need to stand up next to the Son of God. John chapter 3 tries to convey this.Nicodemus was a very good citizen. His name means "Victor of the people". He was humble. He was very smart. He was a good man. Jesus told Nicodemus that he MUST be born from above. He told him that he must be born of God - born again. He needed a new nature born into his being. That is a nature that he was not naturally born with. He needed God to implant a new nature into his being causing him to be born from God, and born again.Jesus said it "must" be so. I have been called away for a bit.

I understood that. I thought you were implying that the re-writing occured after then. Okay. Then could you tell me exactly how your comment relates to the OP - people in the audience of Jesus during His discourse, in Matthew 16 or 24, or 1 Thess 4. (now deceased) disproves the literal truth of the Bible ?Clarify for me your point as it relates to the OP. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

1.) There is no evidence that they regarded it as a "failed prophecy".2.) They were faithful to record problematic sayings of Jesus, potentially embassessing sayings of Jesus, difficult or impossible to obey sayings of Jesus, perplexing sayings of Jesus.I imagine that they together agreed "This is big. This is really big. We need to write these things down while we are still alive that future people may see what this man Jesus taught and did."It is fair to say that over the centries pre-millennial and post millennial theologies do evidence that Christians have disagreed on how to interpret certain words of Christ related to His bringing to earth the kingdom of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You did not give quite a few parameters. You gave ONE: "the contemporaries of Jesus".My last argument is based on assumping that YOUR definition "generation" as "the contemporaries of Jesus" is what He meant. I am assuming now your own definition for argument's sake.Now you want to go back and load more meaning onto the word "generation". I am using your paramters of the contemporaries of Jesus. According to your supplied definition of generation - THIS generation means this group of His contemporaries.If one of the people in the crowd had died in 24 hours would "THIS generation" still exist? I say yes.If someone was born in the next 48 hours would she be a part of "THIS generation". I say yes.As long as Jesus is alive "THIS generation" exists.He died. And you could say that the generation was suspended. But He did not remain dead. He arose and His generation resumed. He still lives today and so His generation, "THIS generation" continues.Now let me ask you a question about His words: "Heaven and earth shall pass away but My words shall by no means pass away."Do these words of Jesus imply that His sayings about the second coming are important to people into the far future or not?If His words are so reliable that their importance will even outlast the physical universe, then after 20 years, 60 years, 200 years, 600 years, 1500 years, 2000 years, 2800 years, etc. His words are important.In essence what the Son of God is saying here is something like this:Paraphrased - "My words concerning these matters is so reliable and so important that no matter WHAT happens, remember them, trust in them, stake your life on them. They cannot fail. It is easier for the universe to dissolve then for these words to be vain or futile."Since the first century AD there have been earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, famines, persecutions of Jews and of Christians. No one can deny that there have been calamities and troubles on earth.The Roman general Titus came into Jerusalem and wreaked terrible havoc on the Jewish inhabitants. Ceasar Nero terribly persecuted Christians to death.By Jesus' words that His words were so trustworthy as to outlast the physical creation He armed and equiped His believers for both the short run, the long run, and the VERY long run. We are to keep holding on to His promise no matter what.Heaven and earth may pass away. But His words concerning His second coming will not pass away.In the mean time, though all these trials He is gaining the inside beings of His people. He is using troubles to drive them out of themselves and into the God of resurrection. He is building New Jerusalem throughout the centries by dispensing God's life and nature into man and using trials to saturate men and women with the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.As the apostle Paul stated: The troubles of the apostles and servants of Christ have caused the treasure of His divine life to be more and more manifested in their mortal bodies. It is God's business to torture test the indwelling Christ so that God living in man would be manifested through 2000 years of attacks against the faith from without and from within.So Jesus emphasized that the believers were to hang on to His promise of eventual vindication no matter what. And that is most likely why He did not pinpoint the exact date of His second coming. How many years does He specify from the time they hear of wars and rumors of wars ? No number is given.How many years does He specify from the time nation rises against nation? Again, no number is given.How many years from the time of earthquakes does He give?
No number is given.Since no number is given you cannot say that a number is incorrect. After each of these how many years does Jesus say will pass
before He has His second coming?No number of years is supplied.There are three places in the book of Revelation which indicate that the great tribulation will last three and one half years.I can't think of any number of years given from his discourse to the beginning of this last three and one half year great tribulation. So I cannot say 2000 years is too much or too few. You previously agreed that we would use Jesus Christ's life as the paramater. That is contemporaries of Him.Now you seem to want to change that to be contemporaries of Peter and John and the disciples.I think the last of the twelve disciples to die was John. So according to your rational if the second coming of Christ did not occur before the death of John then it is a failed prophecy.All I can say is, if you Heretic, want to believe that, you go ahead and believe that. You go ahead and run with that. That is that Jesus words in Matthew 24 are a failed prophecy.I am going to run with a different belief from you. I am going to run with this: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away ... What I say to you I say to all, Watch !" WHEN ... point out the calendar date.He answered them. He did not answer them according to your concept of pinpointing a certain number of years. Throughout the centries there are many Christians who were stengthened, encouraged, sustained, supplied with hope and steadfastness because of Jesus' words in Matthew 24.In your style it makes no sense. To God's plan it makes plenty of sense that they had His words to keep them in endurance. Christ was manifested in their mortal bodies.Spend some time to read a chapter or two of Foxe's Book of Martyrs. I feel kind of sorry for you. You are hanging all you hopes in Christ not being real on a belief in the unreliability of an alledged failed prophecy.It seems that you hope, you hope, you hope He was wrong.
I think you are setting yourself up for a very bitter disappointment. It would be much better to adopt Peter's and Paul's attitude before they died. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That is different Ramoss. Lincoln did not resurrect from the dead like Jesus. For argument's sake I adopted the position that "this generation" was meant to be the comtemporaries of Jesus.Now if you believe that Jesus is dead then the case of Lincoln would be similar. If you believe as Jesus taught and affirmed that He is "the resurrection and the life" then I am a contemporary of Jesus in the year 2010 AD.The western world adopted a view of history the birth of Jesus and forward, were the years of our Lord, meaning we live in the years of the resurrected and exalted Christ Jesus, Lord - Anno Domini or Year of our Lord referring to the year of Christ’s birth. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Yes, Hebrews 2:9 does say that Jesus tasted death on behalf of everything. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything." .What else does Hebrews say? It says that "He lives always" and "abides forever." "But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He LIVES ALWAYS to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24,25 my emphasis ) So I am a contemporary of the living Jesus Christ.And so are you, an unbelieving contemporary. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Can you find any indication in the discourse of Christ concerning His second coming that hints that He might delay His coming?In the parable of the ten virgins He used the word delayed. "And while the bridegroom [meaning Jesus] DELAYED, they [ten virgins] all became drowsy and slept." (Matt. 25:5) Sleep here could indicate that the waiting disciples would die, and be resurrected latter to go forth and meet their Bridegroom as the parable states.You have to admit that the thought of Christ in this parable is that the expectant disciples had to go through a delaying of the coming of their Bridegroom Christ.We are not told how long the delay is. But He does prepare them through this parable to endure delay.Then negatively Christ also gave a teaching warning the disciples of the temptation to act badly because of the delay: "But if the evil slave says in his heart, My master DELAYS, and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that slave will come in a day when he does not expect him ..." (Matt. 24:48-50) So while we take His words about the urgency "this generation," however we interpret "generation", we also should take His words equiping His audience for potential "delay".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.