Condemn gay marriage, or just gay rape?

HIV is a gay disease? Tell that to the children with HIV/AIDS in South Africa I am going to see next month. At ten years old I don't think gay is something they even know about. In lots of the world HIV is a very heterosexual disease. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Can you quote me where I said "HIV is a gay disease"? I don't think I wrote that. Now if you wish to jump to the conclusion that I think that that is your business.However, if you examined my post, I not only mentioned HIV complication which led to my brother's death, BUT I mentioned the contributing circumstances. He was deeply involved in the gay community in San Fransisco.Not the usage of dirty needles or any other source of the HIV. In his case it was participation in the gay community.You should not jump to conclusions so easily. I know that there are other sources of the infection.

No, you ignoramus. It was UNPROTECTED SEX. YOU are just as susceptible to HIV if you have unprotected sex with random partners. It was your equation of the two that led to the assumption that you think HIV/AIDS is a gay disease. Perhaps you should find out why the disease is more prevalent in the homosexual community (hint: it isn't because they are gay).

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

What do you expect me to do with this kind of passage ? "If there is a man who lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination ..." (Leviticus 20:13) Even if I take a pen and change it and make it say whatever you would like it to say, somehow my conscience still says that that for a man to have sex with a man is "an abomination."Sure. I recall a certain stage of puberty when I was infatuated with another boy. I suspect that may be a stage that young men and women pass through.Now I am not a psychologist. But at present, my opinion is that homosexuality is perhaps some kind of arrested psychological development.But notice that the Levitical passage talked about a man lying with a man as with a woman. So I think it is being carried away in the imagination to perform the sex act which is the most abominable to God.It could be argued that David and Johnathan seemed to have something very intimate psychologically between them. The Bible says that Johnathan loved David as his own soul.Yet we do not see them trying to have sex with one another.Now in the New Testament what Paul lists along with other "works of the flesh" includes homosexuality. He does not explicitly mention a man lying with a man or a woman lying with a woman. I conclude at this time that even the orientation is a work of what Pauls says are "the lawless and unruly ... ungodly and sinners ... unholy and profane""And know this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murders, for fornicatiors, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching according to gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted." (1 Tim. 1:9-11) The sin of homosexuality is listed along with other common sins there. We need to be saved from all of these damaging "orientations" through Jesus Christ. This is an issue of whether or not one regards the Bible as the word of God or not. The issue really is - Does a person want to take the Bible as the word of God or reject it as simply human opinion ?If you take it as the word of God then you should see that homosexual orientation is something men and women need Christ for a salvation from.And one should see that male on male sex is an abomination to God. The Apostle Paul in reviewing the decline of early mankind includes also this - "Therefore God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for their females exchanged the natral use for that which is contrary to nature; males, leaving the natural use of the female exchanged t he natural use for that which is contrary to nature..." (See Romans 1:24-27)He does not leave us there. He goes on to speak of the forgiveness of God in the redemption of Christ. And he goes on to elaborate on the freeing power of the indwelling Christ for sanctification.It would be a tradedy if the word of God left us with only condemnation. Thankfully it is far from doing that. And if I WERE carried away by homosexual orientation and wanted to follow the Lord Jesus, it would be on His salvation work that I would be putting my focus on.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Sorry for the off topic continuation but I'd say it was ignorance and prejudice that killed him. Now the ignorance is gone, gay people are more inclined towards protecting themselves. It should also be noted that if it was a gay sister rather than a gay brother, this ignorance probably wouldn't have had such a tragic ending.

Yes. I should have qualified that statement indicating the MALE homosexual community.

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

So you are against homosexuality strictly because the bible says so? You have NO other argument against it? So the equation of harm to others (when you mentioned theft) is a moot point now?IF that is indeed the case, who are you to tell people of a different faith (or a lack thereof) whether or not they can enter into a civil union? That argument really is akin to a muslim dictating to you that you cannot eat pork.

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

I suppose you think that "abomination" means that it's really bad, maybe the worst thing one can do.Not so.First, "abomination" is a mistranslation. But don't take my word for it.

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In fact, toevah is mostly about idolatry, and male homosexual behavior is only as abominable as remarriage or not keeping kosher. Whenever we use the word abomination we are perpetuating the misunderstanding of biblical text and the religious persecution of LGBT people.

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SourceSecond, if it were as offensive to the Christian god as you seem to think it is, why didn't Jesus ever say one word about it?Perhaps your real problem with homosexuality isn't what the bible says about it, but how you feel about it. Think about that for a while.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

You very much insinuated it.The question you purported to answer was this. Instead of answering this you went on a diatribe about HIV/AIDS. You are saying that unions between homosexuals is harmful because it causes AIDS. Why would you bring it up if that isn;t the answer.
Are you ok with lesbians? I don't think there is much of a problem with HIV in the "lesbian community".Participating in the gay community did not cause his death. My cousin died of AIDS. She contracted it from her loser husband that had lots of unprotected sex. Last I heard he is still alive, but she died. It had nothing to do with homosexuality.There are lots of people involved in the gay community in San Francisco that do not have HIV and AIDS. I would venture to bet a lot of them practice safe sex, Just like a lot of heterosexual people. Anyone not practicing safe sex is vulnerable. The gay community is not responsible for your brothers death. He is.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

So if you happen to think that homosexual behavior is a sin, then don't participate in homosexual activities. But frankly, it is none of you business if others participate in homosexual activities.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

The anus, for example, was not designed for the male phallus to be jamed up into it. This can damage the anus.And AIDS can kill you. No, I did not say only gay people get AIDS. I said AIDS can kill you. And AIDS can be contracted because of homosexual practices.Now I am surprised that you needed me to spell this out.And here are the responses I am not expecting from you or some other objector:1.) Some Phd. has now announced that male on male intercourse cannot be a source of the AIDS disease.2.) Heterosexual sex can also be physcially damaging to the body. So that makes homosexuality alright.Maybe you will surprise me with some other rational or justification. But this is the Bible Study Room. And I think the issue is what does the Bible teach about it? And some of us here regard the Bible as the divine revelation of God to man.Now one more matter I'd cover in this post. Some would say that Jesus NEVER spoke against homosexuality as Paul did.Well, this is not quite true. Jesus does mention the judgment of Sodom -He speaks of both the judgment of Sodom in the Old Testament and thier possible standing in the last Judgment. He therefore must have taken the Genesis account of Sodom's sins seriously.Notice also that Jesus said that to reject Himself would be less tolerable then the sin of Sodom. So the real issue is what will the sinner do with Jesus Christ. My purpose in refering to this verse is not to say the sins of Sodom were OK. But rather that in the total scheme of things what one does with the message of Christ the Savior and Son of God is more serious.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It seems that you are mad with me for studying the Bible here with you.

I think you should treat it like this one:

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Lev 11:10-11 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Ah yes. The old "sin of Sodom" dodge. Nice try.The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, sexual depravity or sexual anything.

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Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.

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Ezekiel 16:46-50

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the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...

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Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5

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The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...

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There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a man assaulted his neighbour's wife and bruised her, they would say to the husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one cut off the ear of his neighbour's ass, they would order, Give it to him until it grows again.

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If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this "beneficial" medical service"...]

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... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out...

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If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)...

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A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab's name: on account of the maiden (ribah).

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Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

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Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, 'In accord with their cry', but, 'according to her cry', referring in particular to the girl.

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Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6

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R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money.

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Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7

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Rabbi Ze era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt... Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven... Rabbi Joshua... said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked...

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Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire. Peletith, daughter of Lot, was wedded to one of the magnates of Sodom. She saw a certain very poor man in the street of the city, and her soul was grieved on his account... Every day when she went out to draw water she put in her bucket all sorts of provisions from her home, and she fed that poor man. The men of Sodom said: How does this poor man live? When they ascertained the facts, they brought her forth to be burnt by fire. She said: Sovereign of all the worlds! maintain my right and my cause (at the hands of) the men of Sodom. And her cry ascended before the Throne of Glory. In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, said: I will now descend and I will see whether the men of Sodom have done according to the cry of this young woman, I will turn her foundation upwards, and the surface thereof shall be turned downwards.

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Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer

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Nachmanides commenting on the verse "AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM".

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Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land... many will come there and they despised charity... they continued provoking and rebelling against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor... In the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because of this sin - i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy - since this sin represented their usual behaviour more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.

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Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century

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SourceNow. does that sound more to you like homosexuals, or the religious right, who fight against state-sponsored welfare almost as much as they do against homosexuality?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Not at all. I cannot conceive of a way you could make me mad.I'm just pointing out the facts. I see no real problem pointing out that Paul in particular was pretty often an ass. But we were given the great Gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's up to each of us to use that knowledge and just as we are instructed to question and challenge God himself when he is wrong, we should certainly question Paul.In addition, sins are only relevant between an individual and God; it is of no value, relevance or purpose to anyone else.Homosexuality is certainly something that is no ones business but the parties involved.Marriage is a social contract and certainly not something that requires religious input. If your particular chapter of Club Christian is opposed to homosexuality, then don't participate in homosexual practices. If your particular chapter of Club Christian is opposed to same sex marriages, then don't perform same sex marriages.But you have no say in establishing what the terms of that social contract will be.But it is not a matter of what the Bible says, it is a matter of how YOUR chapter of Club Christian interprets what the Bible says.It is not what GOD says, it is what you claim God says.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!