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Author Topic:   Condemn gay marriage, or just gay rape?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 573 (582209)
09-20-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by subbie
09-20-2010 10:54 AM


I doubt that he does understand.
I think it is pretty clear that at least some of the folk writing the different stories in the Bible would have considered homosexuality a sin and abomination. I don't think there is much doubt that Paul did. It's far less certain that David did or that Jesus did.
But that really is irrelevant when it comes to the issue of Gay Marriage.
Marriage is a social contract and quite frankly, it does not matter whether it is a sin or not. It is also totally irrelevant whether the Bible or some branch of Club Christian considers it a sin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by subbie, posted 09-20-2010 10:54 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 573 (582271)
09-20-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
09-20-2010 4:29 PM


Man was created for God's eternal purpose and homosexuality damages the spiritual , emotional, and in some cases physical vessel of the gay person him or herself.
So this god you worship only created man for his own pleasure, kinda a living dildo I guess. And I imagine that you can show how homosexuality damages this dildo that your God created?
Has the God you worship learned that it can just order a dildo on line or even a hooker if needed?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 09-20-2010 4:29 PM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 573 (582337)
09-20-2010 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jaywill
09-20-2010 8:29 PM


So if you happen to think that homosexual behavior is a sin, then don't participate in homosexual activities. But frankly, it is none of you business if others participate in homosexual activities.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 09-20-2010 8:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jaywill, posted 09-20-2010 9:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 75 of 573 (582345)
09-20-2010 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jaywill
09-20-2010 9:10 PM


Not at all. I cannot conceive of a way you could make me mad.
I'm just pointing out the facts. I see no real problem pointing out that Paul in particular was pretty often an ass. But we were given the great Gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's up to each of us to use that knowledge and just as we are instructed to question and challenge God himself when he is wrong, we should certainly question Paul.
In addition, sins are only relevant between an individual and God; it is of no value, relevance or purpose to anyone else.
Homosexuality is certainly something that is no ones business but the parties involved.
Marriage is a social contract and certainly not something that requires religious input. If your particular chapter of Club Christian is opposed to homosexuality, then don't participate in homosexual practices. If your particular chapter of Club Christian is opposed to same sex marriages, then don't perform same sex marriages.
But you have no say in establishing what the terms of that social contract will be.
But it is not a matter of what the Bible says, it is a matter of how YOUR chapter of Club Christian interprets what the Bible says.
It is not what GOD says, it is what you claim God says.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 573 (582429)
09-21-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jaywill
09-21-2010 6:47 AM


There are quite a few of you trying to hold my feet to the fire about whether or not the Bible has a teaching that homosexuality is an sin.
But it is not about what the Bible teaches, it is about what YOUR chapter of Club Christian teaches, how YOUR chapter of Club Christian interprets what is said.
Don't try and make YOUR position THE Christian position because that is simply not true.
You speak only with the authority of YOUR chapter of Club Christian not for Christianity and certainly not for Christ.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2010 6:47 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2010 11:13 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 573 (582440)
09-21-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by jaywill
09-21-2010 11:13 AM


jaywill writes:
jar writes:
But it is not about what the Bible teaches, it is about what YOUR chapter of Club Christian teaches, how YOUR chapter of Club Christian interprets what is said.
Its a Bible Study.
Any chapter I refered to was a chapter in the Bible.
But the interpretation you present is the interpretation of YOUR chapter of Club Christian.
jaywill writes:
jar writes:
Don't try and make YOUR position THE Christian position because that is simply not true.
Why not if my position is based on good exegesis of the Bible ?
Because there are chapters of Club Christian that interpret it differently. You speak only for YOUR chapter, not for those chapters of Club Christian that interpret it differently.
It really is that simple.
jaywill writes:
jar writes:
You speak only with the authority of YOUR chapter of Club Christian not for Christianity and certainly not for Christ.
Then again this could just be your attitude to reject good Bible exegesis by assigning it as my chatper of Club Christian.
You probably prefer your Club Chapter of Christian Skeptic. I understand.
I truly doubt that you do understand. I am also a member of Club Christian and have been an active and devout member for over 60 years, a Cradle Creedal Christian of the Episcopal chapter of Club Christian.
We understand that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and in fact have several openly gay Bishops, the most recent one is Assistant Bishop Rev. Mary Glasspool from Baltimore who was elected to the Diocese of Los Angeles.
You may speak for whatever chapter of Club Christian you belong, but do not presume to speak for either Christianity or Christ.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2010 11:13 AM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 573 (582612)
09-22-2010 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by jaywill
09-22-2010 10:42 AM


So let's look at the story of Sodom. It starts off in the second half of Genesis 18. God and a couple of his entourage are on a field trip. God has heard complaints about the folk in Sodom and is on a trip to try to learn what is the truth.
quote:
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
So God does not know what is going on, just has rumors and gossip, and is off to find out for itself.
The entourage of course just go along with whatever the Man says, but Abe steps up and starts pointing out just how poorly and immorally God is talking.
quote:
23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thingto kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
God agrees that he was being hasty and unfair and Abe continues to challenge Gods morality and judgment successfully until God is persuaded to moderate its behavior.
BUT...no where in the whole lesson is the issue of homosexuality mentioned.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 09-22-2010 10:42 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by frako, posted 09-22-2010 11:08 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 573 (582828)
09-23-2010 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
09-23-2010 4:08 PM


Because whining didn't work?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 573 (582845)
09-23-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jaywill
09-23-2010 4:36 PM


You really should take the time to actually read the Bible, not just quote mine.
James is talking about general behavior there and about the individual. James is telling folk to concern themselves with their own behavior, not the behavior of others.
James is in fact condemning exact behavior you typify and demonstrate.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2010 4:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 573 (582928)
09-23-2010 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by jaywill
09-23-2010 9:40 PM


To the best of my knowledge Genesis 19:31-36 involved a couple of horny young women screwing a drunken man. Not quite sure how that relates to same sex sex or marriage.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what the Bible, any of the Bible, has to do with the issue of same sex marriage.
Yes, there are authors that wrote parts of the Bible that definitely seem to be opposed to homosexual behavior. Yes, there are also authors that wrote parts of the Bible that definitely seem to be opposed to shrimp and bacon or cutting your sideburns or wearing Woolrich garment.
If YOUR particular chapter of Club Christian believes that homosexuality is a sin or bacon, or shrimp, or cutting sideburns or wearing Woolrich garments, then do not participate in homosexual activities, eat bacon or shrimp, don't cut your sideburns or wear Woolrich garments.
It really is that simple.
AbE:
And this is what James is talking about. Let folk read the Bible, Stop telling them what YOUR chapter of Club Christian claims is the TRUTH.
Edited by jar, : answer the next post too.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2010 9:40 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2010 10:22 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 175 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 3:45 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 573 (583011)
09-24-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by jaywill
09-24-2010 3:45 AM


Not only can't I do that, I never did ban or suspend someone for disagreeing with me.
You are though at a serious disadvantage when trying to debate someone like me, and a great example of the hurdle you face is that you use the Recovery Bible.
The Recovery Bible is a creation for those of very weak faith and no critical thinking skills, a Bible that has more commentary telling the reader what the passage really means then is in the original passage.
I understand that. Almost 400 years ago the Chapter of Club Christian I belong to tried to impose one version of the Bible as the Authorized Version. It did not work then and will not work today.
Your chapter of Cub Christian may hold one set of beliefs. Another chapter of Club Christian though very much disagrees with those beliefs. What you are trying to market is YOUR chapter of Club Christian's set of bylaws as though they were the bylaws for all of Club Christian.
I very much would favor more truth in advertising.
Perhaps you could begin by telling everyone that YOUR chapter of Club Christian considers homosexuality as a sin but that you now understand that some chapters of Club Christian do not see same sex couples in a committed relationship as a sin.
Stop trying to market your product as anything more than the bylaws of YOUR chapter of Club Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 3:45 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 1:06 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 183 of 573 (583060)
09-24-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jaywill
09-24-2010 1:06 PM


jaywill writes:
Here's my interpetation of Mark 10:6-9 . If you find a weakness with it, point it out.
I think you cannot, so you are erecting a army of red herring arguments.
What God ordained was a marriage of one man with one woman. Show me in your version of the Bible, whatever it may be, why you find fault with that interpretation.
What the author of Mark 10 is discussing is not marriage, it is Divorce. It is the author of Mark pointing out his views on Divorce, not marriage, using Jesus as the speaking character.
quote:
Divorce
1Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.
2Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
3"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
It is also yet another example of morality changing with the times, morality evolving.
The material attributed to Moses, according to the Bible, was given to Moses by God herself. Yet here is an example of a later version changing what supposedly God prescribed into something proscribed.
The passage itself has far more to do with commitment and fidelity than with male-female. At the time it was written the only social marriage contract in practice IN THAT community was marriage between a man and woman.
The passage deals with long term commitment; that once a contract is made the parties should try to fulfill that contract.
It is about divorce. not marriage.
Taking the one short mention of man and woman out of the context of the whole passage is a best, misleading.
If God has joined together a man and a man or a woman and a woman in a long term committed monogamous relationship, I imagine God will smile upon it and rejoice in their bond.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 1:06 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 2:39 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 187 of 573 (583099)
09-24-2010 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jaywill
09-24-2010 2:39 PM


How can you say that you do not see morality evolving? I posted the passage, did you not read it?
The author of Mark has the character speaking as Jesus redefine the laws.
It clearly says that the laws Moses presented were meant of the people of Moses day and that now the rules were changing.
We live today.
Morality has evolved since Jesus time. Today, things that were certainly moral back then are considered immoral and things that were considered immoral, an abomination even, are considered moral.
The passage though is NOT about marriage and divorce, it is about divorce, just divorce. It is saying that commitments like marriage should be long term and stable. A long term stable same sex commitment is certainly acceptable in the eyes of GOD according to my chapter of Club Christian.
The point, as it relates to this topic is that yes, many of the writers (particularly the authors of the new testament) considered homosexuality a sin.
If YOUR particular chapter of Club Christian agrees with that position, then the reasonable course is for YOUR chapter of Club Christian to abstain from homosexual practices.
That however, is totally irrelevant to the issue of same sex marriage other then the very narrow position that YOUR chapter of Club Christian is free to not perform same sex marriages.
Whether or not it is a sin is NONE of your business. That is something to be determined by God should there be a judgment.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2010 2:39 PM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 196 of 573 (583206)
09-25-2010 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by jaywill
09-25-2010 7:16 AM


Re: Not so beautiful dreamers
jaywill writes:
This "We" sounds like the party line. Jar implied that I was the only one with a "Club" here.
Sorry but once again you are simply posting falsehoods and misrepresenting what I have said.
I have mentioned YOUR Chapter of Club Christian; I have also mentioned MY chapter of Club Christian.
In addition, Jude mentions Sodom and Gomorrah only in passing and as but one example of immorality. The basics of Jude is on personal behavior once again and it supports exactly what I have been saying all along.
If YOU and YOUR chapter of Club Christian believe that homosexuality is a sin, then don't participate in homosexual activities. The reference is to fornication and strange flesh. I imagine you have heard the colloquial term "a little bit of strange" before.
But there is NOTHING in Jude that mentions raping men.
Jude writes:
Jude 1
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Talk about slice and dice, when it is YOU who takes one or two words out of context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2010 7:16 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 09-27-2010 8:35 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 202 of 573 (583445)
09-27-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
09-27-2010 8:35 AM


Re: Not so beautiful dreamers
And you still don't get it.
The "fornication" is the homosexual gang rape they attempted. That is what Jude is refering to.
Fornication is fornication. It can be heterosexual, homosexual, possibly even individual.
Rape is considered wrong as well. It can be homosexual or heterosexual.
You diminish the message by your interpretation.
Secondly, verse 7 connects to verse 6 by the words "Even as Sodom". Verse 6 concerns angels who left their normal station to be involved somehow in realm in which they did not belong.
The parallel between those judged angels and the men who left the natural form sex expected of men to experiment in same sex sexual activity, I think is very much implied. In other words it was not even a typical fornication but one most unnatural, ie., a realm in which they had no business to be in - male on male sexual activity.
Yes, we know you claim that you see it as being implied, but it just ain't there. And the only parallel between verse 6 & 7 is that in both cases there is judgment.
BUT WAIT...there's more.
Jude has 25 verses. You are picking out just two because you think they support your position. The way to read the Bible though is to look a Jude and see what Jude says, not what Jude 6&7 say.
Jude is saying behave yourself.
Jude is NOT saying, "Don't be a homosexual" but rather "Don't be a fornicator".
Jude supports what I have been telling you for many, many posts.
If YOUR chapter of Club Christian thinks homosexuality is wrong, then do not participate in homosexual activities.
If YOUR chapter of Club Christian believe same sex marriage is wrong, then don't perform same sex marriages.
Just remember though that there are other chapters of Club Christian that read the same Bible as you yet do not see homosexuality as an issue or a sin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 09-27-2010 8:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jaywill, posted 09-27-2010 12:03 PM jar has replied

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