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Member (Idle past 5626 days) Posts: 239 From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Condemn gay marriage, or just gay rape? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: 50 years ago, marriage by definition didn't include whites marrying nonwhites in most states. Why didn't they just come up with something different? Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: So what? It was an issue in this country until the SCOTUS ended it, for reasons that are exactly parallel the issue of gay marriage. It's not clutching at straws, it's called arguing by analogy from precedent. Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote:My emphasis. quote: You're going to have to explain to me how was anglagard said wasn't in exactly the same context as what you said. Is it really that difficult for you to admit that you were wrong? Edited by subbie, : Tyop Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
It in fact is precedent because it's an issue that the SCOTUS ruled on in 1967 in Loving v. Virginia. What happened in history and when racism became institutionalized is irrelevant. (And this is even assuming the truth of what you say, something I doubt very much.) SCOTUS declared interracial marriage unconstitutional as a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment under arguments that are identical in rationale to the arguments against gay marriage. You need to actually read the Loving decision to understand how and why.
Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
You said:
quote:My emphasis Whether we were talking about traditional marriage in ancient times, the original institution of marriage, or how fun puppy dogs are to play with, your statement is factually wrong. Context has nothing to do with it. Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
The matter of "I cannot help this because I was born this way" may also be appplied to stealing, lying, gossip, fornication, pickpocketing, bullying, extortioning, backbitting, embezzelment, adultery, drunkenness, gluttony ... etc. First, no it can't. Second, even if it could, that hardly makes them equivalent. What do all of your examples have in common that homosexuality doesn't? They all hurt someone else. Nobody else is affected in the least by someone being a homosexual. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Not only can I make the argument that I ought to be able to steal because I was born with this strong tendency to do so. You think that's equivalent to sexual orientation? Really? Let me ask you this; could you ever choose to be sexually attracted to another man? I assume the answer is no. It's the same for homosexuality. Plus, while you can always "make the argument" that you were born with a strong tendency to do so, you'd be wrong.
I also can rationalize that my stealing hurts no one so it is not wrong. Of course you can. That's because it is wrong, so it requires rationalization. On the other hand, homosexuality requires no rationalization because it doesn't hurt anyone else. Now do you understand? Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined:
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I suppose you think that "abomination" means that it's really bad, maybe the worst thing one can do.
Not so. First, "abomination" is a mistranslation. But don't take my word for it.
quote: Source Second, if it were as offensive to the Christian god as you seem to think it is, why didn't Jesus ever say one word about it? Perhaps your real problem with homosexuality isn't what the bible says about it, but how you feel about it. Think about that for a while. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Ah yes. The old "sin of Sodom" dodge. Nice try.
The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, sexual depravity or sexual anything.
quote: Source Now. does that sound more to you like homosexuals, or the religious right, who fight against state-sponsored welfare almost as much as they do against homosexuality? Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Let's take a closer look at what Jesus said about Sodom and Gomorrah. Here are the two lines you quoted in a fuller context:
quote: He is talking to his disciples, giving them instructions. His reference to Sodom and Gomorrah is in the context of explaining what will happen to towns that do not receive his disciples well. He makes no reference whatsoever to any sort of sexual activity. That's your evidence that Jesus disapproved of homosexuality? Color me unimpressed. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
jaywill writes: At the moment I would only say that these reasons are not enough for me to remove the impact of thier homosexual activity as an offense and rebellion against God. It is quite true that other errors may have provided the atmosphere and backround for thier homosexual sins to ferment. And it is true that latter in Scripture some of those sins were mentioned by God. I cannot seriously use those passages to soften the effect of what Genesis says. God went to see of the actions of revolt against God were as seriouse as their cries against heaven indicated. I think this revolting cry up to heaven of Sodom involved thier rejection of nature's normal way of sexual attraction and activity. That is the way the Genesis story reads to me. They shook their fists against God concerning what THEY craved for in the realm of sexual pleasure. But you are right that latter the Scripture does mention the sin of their pride and complacency. Often very proud and idle people who have too much thinking to do invent evil things. This sounds to me like you're more interested in reading into the scripture what you want to be there, rather than reading what it says and trying to understand the message that it is sending. Consider this question very carefully, and not just as a rhetorical device I'm employing to win an argument, but as a genuine question about something that doesn't make sense: Why did Jesus never say anything against homosexuality? Why did he refer to Sodom and Gomorrah only in the context of discussing how to treat strangers? To me, this provides compelling evidence of what he thought the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah was. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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