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Author Topic:   German judge rules child circumcision as child abuse.
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 314 of 410 (667081)
07-02-2012 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by bluegenes
07-02-2012 9:25 PM


Re: Culture
So, try again. What's the essential difference between defending someone's right to a practice and defending that practice?
I'm not defending circumcision. I am defending a parent's right to choose circumcision for their child.
I am not arguing about circumcision. I am arguing about the right to circumcise.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by bluegenes, posted 07-02-2012 9:25 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by bluegenes, posted 07-03-2012 5:56 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 335 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 6:58 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 316 of 410 (667083)
07-03-2012 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by xongsmith
07-02-2012 11:52 PM


Re: Culture
Have you ever heard of the expression, "Silence is a form of consent"?
By remaining aloof in the manner you state above, you are consenting to allow it (someone other than the owner of the penis to choose to do the procedure) to happen.
If you'll pardon another use of hyperbole, you know the bit about "when they came for the Jews, I did nothing...when they came for the Gypsies, I did nothing...."?
But how is any of that relevant to Panda and bluegenes's inability to distinguish defense of an action from defense of the right to perform an action?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by xongsmith, posted 07-02-2012 11:52 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by xongsmith, posted 07-03-2012 12:24 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 373 of 410 (667150)
07-03-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by crashfrog
07-03-2012 6:47 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Read them in the context of Ringo's arguments, and you'll find out.
That's nice, crash.
There's apparently no connection to the topic, and you are apparently unwilling to provide one. But I guess we all know how this ends, don't we? Fifty posts devoted to you trying to weasel out of your argument with empty appeals to your 'integrity' in debate.
Have fun with that. You can count me out.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 6:47 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 376 of 410 (667154)
07-03-2012 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by crashfrog
07-03-2012 6:53 AM


Unless, of course, it's your penis being circumcised; in that case, you don't get to make your own decision about it.
Well that's just nonsense. There is nothing in the law saying I have to give up my right to decide what is best for my body in all matters pertaining to my penis.
If someone came up to me and attempted to cut off a part of my penis, not only would I be allowed to use deadly force to stop them, but I could then sue them for damages and appear in court as a witness for the prosecutors pressing charges for the offense.
It's nonsense to say I don't get to make decisions about my own penis. Because I do.
My position, which actually is the position of individual choice, is that individual penis-havers should be allowed to make their own individual choice about whether their penis is circumcised, and that it's therefore in the interest of the state to step in and make sure that nobody makes that choice for them, at a time in their life when they're unable to articulate their own choice in the matter.
Huh? Why? What is so special about penises? Parents make choices on their children's behalves all of the time; that is one of the primary rights and responsibilities of a parent: to decide on behalf of their child(ren).
Why do you want to interfere with this relationship and take some of these rights away when it comes to circumcision? What is so special about the penises of other people's children that warrants you sticking your nose into their family affairs?
since adult men may reasonably not wish to be circumcised, the state should protect their individual choice in the matter.
And it does. You can't circumcise an adult against their will without suffering some pretty serious legal and civil consequences.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 6:53 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 3:09 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 378 of 410 (667156)
07-03-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Jazzns
07-03-2012 12:44 AM


Re: AAP on hygiene
If your going to interject, please follow what CS and I were discussing. It was he who suggested that we would need a good reason to stop.
Yes; a good reason to stop allowing parents the right to choose circumcision for their children.
We can go back to that if your would like but I think in need to insist you stop being such an asshole just because we are having a disagreement about something.
Me... an asshole? And here is you labeling circumcised men who are perfectly happy with their body and who they are as 'mutilated' and 'disfigured'.
If you would like to assist with that, I believe the main point that was under discussion was what actually happens in the various forms of FGM, that there are different forms, and yes I do believe it is relevant to point out that the justification for both male and female mutilation come from the same cultural superstitions.
There are many ways to alter a genitalia. Circumcision is the removal of the foreskin from the penis. It's very straight forward. 'FGM' on the other hand is meaningless. It's like trying to have a discussion about whether 'male genital modification' is right or wrong when 'male genital modification' is being used to refer to everything from circumcision to full castration. How could the participants ever be on the same page?
Throw out 'FGM'; just stop using it, and stick to terms that have meaning. And then, go start a thread about those things, since they aren't the topic of this thread.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Jazzns, posted 07-03-2012 12:44 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Jazzns, posted 07-03-2012 5:06 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 379 of 410 (667157)
07-03-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by xongsmith
07-03-2012 1:31 PM


Re: Summary
But there is no parental "right" here. You cannot restrict something that does not exist.
There is a parental right. Currently, parents have the right to circumcise their children.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by xongsmith, posted 07-03-2012 1:31 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 389 of 410 (667171)
07-03-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by crashfrog
07-03-2012 3:09 PM


You can't circumcise an adult against their will without suffering some pretty serious legal and civil consequences.
Sure you can, that's the problem.
No you can't.
You just have to do it before they're able to defend themselves.
Well then they aren't so much an adult, are they?
Nothing is special about penises
Good. Then you should have nothing against allowing parents to exercise the same freedom over deciding what happens with their child's penis as they exercise in deciding what happens to their child's teeth, tonsils, birthmarks, extra toes, and so forth.
Unless, of course, you do think penises are special; so special that you think we need to restrict a parent's right to make decisions for their child in the particular case of penis modification.
If there's nothing special about penises, why should society care one way or the other?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 3:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 3:57 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 395 of 410 (667180)
07-03-2012 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by crashfrog
07-03-2012 3:57 PM


They are an adult, just not while they're an infant or child.
Well that's saying a lot.
When parents opt to have a child's teeth, tonsils, birthmarks, extra toes, and so on amputated, it has to be for medically justifiable reasons that leave the child better off than he or she would have been absent the intervention. If the intervention would make the child worse off, it isn't allowed.
Before performing any procedure on a child, should parents simply get in the habit of contacting CPS and their local community members to ensure that the procedure is okay with everyone else?
Or is it to the parent to decide whether tonsillectomies and braces make their child better off or not?
I'm absolutely in favor of having circumcision be subject to the same rationale.
What rationale? You simply said 'leave the child better off'. You didn't indicate who would be deciding what constitutes 'better off'. Most of the discussion in this thread has revolved around whether parents should make the call in what constitutes better off or whether someone else should be allowed to make that call.
You seem to think someone else should make the call. But what is your rationale for that?
Can you explain why you're not?
My rationale is that parents decide what is in the best interest of their children unless there is extremely good reason to legislate that power away from them. So I view circumcision as fitting perfectly within that view as something the parents have the right to make a decision about on behalf of the child.
For the same reason that society cares about vaginas, earlobes, pinky toes, and all the rest of a child's body parts which cannot be summarily amputated for solely religious, cultural, or cosmetic reasons; or no reason at all.
But those are all 'special circumstances'. If you want to admit circumcision to that list, then you'll have to concede that it is 'special' and prove as much to justify its placement on that list.
So why do you think circumcision is so special?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2012 3:57 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 403 of 410 (667209)
07-04-2012 7:54 AM


Summary: Boundaries in Perspective
I think Jazzns has put the issue into perfect perspective:
quote:
Jazzns in Message 402:
Parental rights have limits which end at common sense boundaries that protects society as a whole.
So before intruding on parental rightsbefore setting 'limits' and delineating 'common sense boundaries', we must ask ourselves: does banning infant circumcision really protect 'society as a whole'?
Are societies with a high population of circumcised males (such as the U.S., for example) somehow disadvantaged compared to less circumcised groups simply because of their circumcision?
If they are, such a fact was never demonstrated in all the four hundred posts of this thread.
So where is the good reason for banning infant circumcision? What is the benefit to 'society as a whole'?
I ain't seen it.
Edited by Jon, : Clarity

Love your enemies!

  
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