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Author Topic:   German judge rules child circumcision as child abuse.
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 174 of 410 (666904)
07-01-2012 6:44 AM


A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
I found this fascinating, and I think a must read for some of the commentators on this thread. So, rather than just linking, I'll copy it into the thread in order to try to persuade all to read it, and to make it easy to refer back to later in the thread if anyone wishes to.
This thread's discussion has a lot to do with cultural bias in science/medicine as well as religious involvement in it, and....well....wanking!
The paper's in two parts, and I'll put it in two posts. The end of this first part partially explains the medical division between the U.K. and the U.S. on the issue, which developed mainly from the 1930s onwards; the British remaining in tune with the rest of Europe while the U.S. diverged markedly in its attitude from the rest of the scientific world.
A short history of circumcision in the United States: Part 1.
quote:
A short history of circumcision in the United States: Part 1
Medical science in the service of Victorian morals
(The following article was originally given as a paper to the Fourth International Symposium on Sexual Mutilations, held at Lausanne, Switzerland, in August 1996. Although it may seem rather dated today, it blazed the research trail for others, and remains a milestone in the excavation of the true history of medically rationalised circumcision. It is a remarkable pioneering effort to uncover the truth by going back and reading the almost incredible things that doctors did not so long ago, and about which they reported, often with grisly detail, in their own professional journals. The thoroughness of the bibliography alone makes this paper one that no student of the history of circumcision can afford to ignore.)
A short history of enforced circumcision in the United States.
For the past 130 years the American medical industry has been involved in the business of removing part or all of the external sexual organs of male and female children. While the origins of sexual mutilations among prehistoric and primitive peoples is a matter for theory and speculation, the origin and spread of sexual mutilation in American medical practice can be precisely documented. Seen in the proper context of the entire scope of western history, the modern American enigma of institutionalized sexual mutilation is an historic aberration of profound significance and degree, one that could never have been predicted, and one that perhaps could not have been avoided.
1. Modernization
The introduction and spread of institutionalized secular sexual mutilation was a response to the tremendous social and cultural anxieties engendered by the effects of the rapid modernization and industrialization of the early decades of the nineteenth century. As the traditional rural-agrarian economy was transformed into an urbanized capitalist economy, parallel changes occurred in social structure, governmental and non-governmental institutions, demographics and technology. One significant result of these changes was the ascendancy of the middle class to positions of economic and political power. The emergent middle class was now in a position to reinterpret social mores and redefine the individual for all of society. ...
Circumcision is not common among Negroes. Many Negroes are promiscuous. In Negroes there is little circumcision, little knowledge or fear of venereal disease, and promiscuity in almost a hornets nest of infection. Thus the venereal rate in Negroes has remained high. Between these two extremes there is the gentile, with a venereal disease rate higher than that of Jews, but much lower than that of Negroes. [62]
In the same study Hand reported that cancer of the tongue was more common among men with foreskins than among Jews. Newsweek gave generous coverage to these sensational findings, thereby fuelling the popular perception that a policy of mass circumcision was both scientifically valid and of critical importance to the future security of the nation. [63]
5.2 Douglas Gairdner saves the British foreskin
In December 1949 the British Medical Journal published The fate of the foreskin, a landmark study by Cambridge pediatrician Douglas Gairdner (1910-1992). Drawing on the research of Deibert ad Hunter, and presenting his own meticulous observations on preputial development, adhesion and retractability, Gairdner debunked the phimosis myth and demonstrated that non-retractability, adhesion and length were the normal conditions of the infant foreskin, and that separation occurred gradually as the boy got older. His paper also reviewed the standard list of the benefits of circumcision (cancer, syphilis) and rejected them as spurious. Circumcision rates in Britain had been declining since the 1930s, when doctors had become concerned at the high incidence of injury and death, and Gairdner’s paper gave it the death blow. [64] Under the new National Health Service established in 1948, parents who asked to have their boy circumcised were told that it was not an approved procedure and that if they wanted it they would have to pay to get it done privately. As you would expect, when a price was put on the operation most parents decided that it was not really necessary after all, and the incidence of circumcision declined rapidly.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminModulous, : I hid most of the lengthy cut and paste. Even if it is interesting (which it is), it's way too long for EvC debate. Please extract the gold and refer to the source for further information, thanks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 7:05 AM bluegenes has not replied
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 9:50 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 176 of 410 (666906)
07-01-2012 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by bluegenes
07-01-2012 6:44 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
History of circumcision in the U.S.: Part 2.
As the O.P. concerns a case in Germany, note the interesting paragraph concerning attempts by U.S. companies to proselytize circumcision in Germany during the influence of the occupation.
By East Asian standards, circumcision is particularly high in South Korea, also due to U.S. influence during the Korean war. Most other markets have largely resisted large scale consumption of the Gomco clamp.
quote:
7. Conclusion
The historical record makes it clear that in the late nineteenth century American physicians sought to institutionalise genital mutilation of both boys and girls as a means of eliminating childhood sexuality, and that their efforts were successful in the case of boys, unsuccessful in the case of girls. Doctors circumcised boys to denude, desensitise and disable the penis to such an extent as to make masturbation impossible, or at least not worth the effort. Clitoridectomy of girls was introduced for the same reason. While the medical establishment’s use of popular fears about masturbation to justify mass circumcision has remained pretty constant since Victorian times, the subsequent supplementary excuses offered to justify circumcision follow a clearly defined pattern: whatever incurable disease happens to be the focus of national attention at any given time will be the disease that circumcision advocates will cite as a reason for circumcision. In the 1870s, when epilepsy was the disease of the moment, circumcision advocates claimed that circumcision could cure and prevent epilepsy. In the 1940s, when STDs were the focus of national health fears, they claimed that circumcision could prevent the spread of STDs. In the 1950s, when everybody was obsessed with cancer, circumcision advocates claimed that circumcision could prevent all sorts of cancers — of the penis, of the tongue of the prostate and of the cervix. Since the late 1980s, when HIV-AIDS became the greatest health scare since the Black Death, circumcision advocates have predictably claimed that circumcision is the answer to AIDS control.
Ironically, and despite these claims, the United States, for all that most of the men are circumcised, does not have a particularly good health record, and on most indicators is well behind places such as Japan and Scandinavia, where circumcision is practically unknown. Today the USA has both the highest percentage of sexually active, circumcised men and one of the highest rates of genital cancers and STDs in the western world. The paradox implicit in this history is that even though mass circumcision has been ineffective as a public health measure, and has done little to control either cancers or STDs, the American medical establishment has clung to its faith in circumcision and consistently sought to find new justifications for it. Their priority does not seem to have been maximising public health, but maximising their foreskin harvest. Such unscientific allegiance to an ineffective and harmful surgical procedure, when good sense would suggest the adoption of more conservative and more effective strategies, suggests that there may be a deeper, non-rational dynamic behind circumcision advocacy, and that it is not just matter of simply applying, as they so often claim, the discoveries of medical science to public health policy. [139]
The history of the institutionalisation of involuntary circumcision in the United States demonstrates that American society has been willing to apply what it takes to be scientific measures at the expense of personal liberty. It is tempting to dismiss circumcision as merely a quaint example of medical quackery pursued by a handful of zealous doctors. We would do better to remember that in the name of scientific progress, millions of American citizens have been subjected to genital mutilation and deprived of an integral, functional and beautiful part of their body. In the face of increasing international criticism and constitutional challenges we must wonder how much longer the medical establishment will be able to continue to indulge in the kinds of illogical thinking and disregard for human rights that underpin their commitment to circumcision as prophylaxis and therapy.
Edited by AdminModulous, : The lengthy text is still there, I've just hidden most of it, so if you want to edit differently than I did you can do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 6:44 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 181 of 410 (666916)
07-01-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
07-01-2012 9:50 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Jon writes:
This thread has to do with why certain members of society over-obsess on matters of sexuality and feel a right to make everyone else's sexuality their priority.
Exactly what the paper points out. That there have been very vocal advocates for cutting bits off other people's sexual organs under a whole variety of pretenses throughout the last two centuries.
Jon writes:
This thread is about people who are, quite frankly, too damn hung upand creepily soon what happens with the penises of other people's children.
So's the article. It's about people who are, quite frankly, so hung up - and creepily so - on what happens with the penises of other people's children that they want to cut bits off all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 9:50 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 11:44 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 183 of 410 (666919)
07-01-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
07-01-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
What is wrong with "Culture" as a justification of "circumcision"?
If your culture thinks it is "mutilation" then simply do not circumcise your children.
But if another culture believes circumcision is not mutilation and that it should be done, then why should YOUR culture take precedence?
Anything that's ever been done in any part of the world could be justified on that basis. Infanticide probably still goes on in some cultures. I could hang, draw and quarter people on the basis of English historical precedence. We have groups of African migrants in Europe for whom female circumcision is traditional. Our modern culture overrides that, and they are not allowed to follow that tradition.
So, in the O.P., what should the German courts consider? Modern German culture, or Middle-Eastern traditions? And if some refugees from Afghanistan arrive in America, and decide that one of their number should be stoned to death for adultery, will you be arguing for laws to be changed in order to accommodate their culture?
And how can newborn babies have culture, let alone believe that circumcision is part of it?

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 Message 182 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 10:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 11:30 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 185 of 410 (666921)
07-01-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
07-01-2012 11:30 AM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
But we are not talking about everything, rather about circumcision.
Nothing else is even relevant.
Ah. Including culture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 11:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 11:49 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(3)
Message 188 of 410 (666924)
07-01-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Jon
07-01-2012 11:44 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Jon writes:
And they're not the topic.
Circumcisors and the circumcision lobby are definitely on topic.
Jon writes:
And this thread's not about those people.
If the people who want to cut bits off other people's genitals didn't exist, the thread wouldn't exist.
Jon writes:
Try to be relevant.
Try to learn what relevant means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 11:44 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 1:40 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 193 of 410 (666930)
07-01-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
07-01-2012 11:49 AM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
No, culture is relevant.
Well, make up your mind.
jar writes:
Behaviors were what were being discussed, specifically circumcision.
Yes. And what is your point? If culture is not a justification for any behaviour, then how would mentioning it on its own argue for the justification of a specific behaviour?
jar writes:
Ah, another sophomore it seems.
Is that sad attempt at an insult because I questioned your statement that nothing other than circumcision was relevant when you'd clearly just brought up something other than circumcision?
Edited by bluegenes, : missing word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 11:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 12:22 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(4)
Message 200 of 410 (666939)
07-01-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
07-01-2012 12:22 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
Circumcision is the topic, but maybe you had not noticed.
Maybe not. Maybe I posted a lengthy paper about it by sheer coincidence.
jar writes:
Each specific behavior should be judged within the context of the specific State, culture or society.
The German court seems to have made a judgement within the context of modern Germany.
To me, one interesting thing about the paper I linked to was that so much of the pro-circumcision movement in both America and Europe over the last 200 years seems to have been motivated by a desire to interfere with genitals because of their natural sexual characteristics, but that this has always been expressed in health terms. It's remarkable how many diseases and conditions the poor foreskin has been blamed for!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 12:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 1:26 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(3)
Message 206 of 410 (666945)
07-01-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Jon
07-01-2012 1:40 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Jon writes:
If you have a point, make it.
If you didn't read or understand the paper, why did you reply to my post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 1:40 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 212 of 410 (666951)
07-01-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by jar
07-01-2012 1:26 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
But fortunately I do not live within the context of the German State, culture or society. I do find the German ruling pitiful, but as I say, I does not effect me and so it is none of my business. If the Germans are willing to accept it then that's fine for them.
Well yes. You might say that it reflects their culture. But you have a growing movement in your country that agrees with them.
Presumably, you wouldn't normally consider legislation against the sexual molestation of children to be pitiful. It may be that, all throughout history, when people have had a tendency to chop bits off other people's genitals, the underlying motive relates to the natural sexuality of the victims. This could be the case whether it has been incorporated into ancient rituals, or, as the paper I posted explains, it is a relatively modern movement.
That doesn't mean that the people who want to chop bits off others consciously understand what they're doing. They can, as the examples from the 19th century show, perceive ordinary healthy behaviour as symptoms of sickness. And those from cultures in which the chopping has been incorporated as religious ritual might just see it as "God's will" or whatever.
So, modern medical consensus, and medical ethics in Europe particularly, are questioning whether an individual's integrity should be compromised in this way. The German case may be the beginning of many around the world, and these will effect what happens in your country (where people have already been suing hospitals for a while).

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 Message 201 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 1:26 PM jar has replied

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 Message 213 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 2:45 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 217 of 410 (666958)
07-01-2012 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
07-01-2012 2:45 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
Fortunately, circumcision has absolutely nothing to do sexual molestation and so that is totally irrelevant.
Sexual interference might be a better phrase, but that's academic. But yes, the Euro-American non-ritual circumcision of the last two centuries definitely did, and that's a lot of what the paper I posted was about. The same thing, along with similar medical misconceptions may have been the underlying force behind some ancient cultures who developed the practice, as well.
While it's much more obviously related to sexuality when done in women, there's a good case to be made that it's an important part of the story for men, also.
jar writes:
Personally, I don't see any "right to bodily integrity", whatever that is.
Well that might certainly indicate a cultural difference between the Muslim world and places like Texas on the one hand, and modern Europe on the other. Germany's in Europe. It may be sitting on the long term future, but I don't expect outright bans on needless circumcision for some time. I suspect that discussion and gentle dissuasion will be the course of most European countries.
However, the circumcisers are under pressure not to make any disastrous mistakes, which is difficult, because interfering with a delicate organ isn't easy (which is why Doctors usually only do it for good reasons, and leave perfectly healthy organs alone).

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 Message 213 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 2:45 PM jar has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 224 of 410 (666968)
07-01-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by jar
07-01-2012 3:48 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
And as I have said, I see no innate right to bodily integrity or how circumcision effects bodily integrity other than those established by a peculiar State, culture or society.
His assertion was simply sophomoric and inane.
What your theme seems to be is that you can understand some sort of bizarre right for people to choose to chop parts off other people's genitals on some sort of cultural basis, but you struggle with the concept of people developing a more civilized culture which includes the idea of individuals being left to decide the fate of their own genitals.
Weird.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 3:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 4:22 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 230 of 410 (666974)
07-01-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
07-01-2012 4:22 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
YOU can word it like that, I would not.
I'd say that I do not feel I have a right to prohibit the relatively low risk procedure that is circumcision based on my own personal bias but believe that it should be left up to the parents directly involved and their doctors.
I worded it very accurately. You probably routinely accept laws that forbid people from interfering with other people's sexual organs without the consent of those people. I've explained that that's what's been happening in America since the nineteenth century. A law against unnecessary circumcision, which not only interferes but leaves permanent effects, is just bringing the situation in line with other laws. We're not allowed to play around with kids' genitals just because we want to, are we?
If you read that paper, you'd know that when nineteenth century doctors first started messing around with healthy genitals, the public, quite naturally, reacted against it. But what's happened over time is that you've been deluded into accepting something which is actually very odd in the first place, as your ancestors would have correctly perceived.
Think of it a bit like the Chinese developing their cult of binding women's feet, and then finally realising that they were doing something pointless and silly. Humans have a tendency to develop weird cults, and there are lots of examples. The cult of unnecessary circumcision started to fade in Europe in the 30s and 40s, but continued to grow in the states, reaching a peak in the 70s and 80s. It's now in decline, and people are realising, like the Chinese with their silly feet, that they've been chopping bits off peoples cocks and changing healthy sexual organs for no reason.
Your head is still inside the cult, it seems. You're seeing a behaviour as normal which both your ancestors and descendents would and will perceive correctly as aberrational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 4:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 5:19 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 235 of 410 (666980)
07-01-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
07-01-2012 5:19 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
It might be wise if you stopped trying to tell others what I think and leave that part up to me.
I think I've interpreted your confusion on the subject very well.
When I describe you as supporting the rights of those who want to intefere with the genitals of others over the rights of the owners of the genitals, that seems to sum up what you've been saying very well.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 5:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 5:44 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 238 of 410 (666984)
07-01-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by onifre
07-01-2012 5:45 PM


Re: BJ anyone?
onifre writes:
BUT THE LADIES LOVE IT
On the down side, that means you missed out on $250,000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by onifre, posted 07-01-2012 5:45 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by onifre, posted 07-01-2012 6:01 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 246 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2012 12:51 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
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