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Author | Topic: Is God good? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: You're supposed to learn from the Flood that God judges us for our sins, you're not supposed to judge Him. Scripture says He judged them for the wicked thoughts of their hearts and the violence they committed.
Babies don't have wicked thoughts or commit violence. I may not be supposed to judge him but, you know, he gave me a brain and a sense of morality so I apply it and it tells me that anything that murders millions of babies for no reason other than the supposed sins of their parents is evil. It looks to me like your God is a revenous wolf. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Calvin didn't say that. Those are all real quotations, I checked.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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You're supposed to learn from the Flood that God judges us for our sins, you're not supposed to judge Him. Scripture says He judged them for the wicked thoughts of their hearts and the violence they committed. And Calvin says that they wouldn't have committed this violence except that God expressly willed and ordained it. (See my quotations, supra.)
Another thing the Bible teaches is that we inherit sin from our parents and for all you know the babies you are so hypocritically concerned about had inherited a double dose of the violence of their parents. And Calvin says that the inheritance of sin is not in nature, and therefore requires God to do a miracle in order for this to happen at all.
But whether they will allow it or not, predestination is manifest in Adam's posterity. It was not owing to nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent. [...] Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. It is very absurd in these worthy defenders of the justice of God to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? --- Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.23
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3
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You're supposed to learn from the Flood that God judges us for our sins, you're not supposed to judge Him. Scripture says He judged them for the wicked thoughts of their hearts and the violence they committed. If you don't think it's appropriate to judge god, then why are you participating in a thread where the express topic is to do exactly that? Regardless of what lesson was supposed to be learned from the Flood...if it were to have actually happened, it would have been a reprehensible wicked act. You continue jaywill's tactics of blaming the victims and special pleading, but like him, it doesn't help you. Killing every man, woman, and child on Earth except for 8 people would constitute the largest scale mass murder in the history of the planet. That's the very definition of evil.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Sure, because God is righteous and He does no evil and we don't have to know all His reasons. Not according to the Bible:
quote:
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Can you please explain to me in simple terms how a new born baby can refuse to be saved and why killing just one of them in the flood would not be an evil act? People die. The Bible says that God killed them directly, but they may have died in acts of nature or circumstances of natural origin. Newborn babies are not accountable to anyone...if they die they die. Adults are another matter spiritually. Fact is, however, we all die.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: People die. The Bible says that God killed them directly, but they may have died in acts of nature or circumstances of natural origin. Newborn babies are not accountable to anyone...if they die they die. Adults are another matter spiritually. Fact is, however, we all die. What? Really, what? God deliberately killed all life on the planet except a handlull of people and a couple of each of the 'kinds'. That's deliberately, with malice aforethought. With intent. He gave warning of it, then did it. That's considered, pre-planned genocide. That's the worst crime that we humans can imagine. The very worst. But if babies "die they die". Are you seriously that callous, that un-Christian? What on earth do you believe and how could you even consider it sane, moral, human or - god help me - GodlyLife, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
People die. The Bible says that God killed them directly, but they may have died in acts of nature or circumstances of natural origin. Newborn babies are not accountable to anyone...if they die they die. Adults are another matter spiritually. Fact is, however, we all die.
You have gone beyond your typical psuedophilosophical woo and stepped into the bounds of offensive now. It is ok for god to kill babies cuz, you know, they are just babies. That is offensive to anyone with any sense of morals.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Phat writes:
Imagine that someone had killed your neighbours' newborn. Newborn babies are not accountable to anyone...if they die they die. What would the reaction be if you said: "Newborn babies are not accountable to anyone...if they die they die."What do you think your neighbours would feel if you said that to them? Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Again Faith, stop misrepresenting me. I do not call the Gospel foolish, I say that the gospel you try to market makes God look foolish. That IS the gospel and the scripture quotes I gave confirm that it is the gospel, it is the gospel of the cross, the gospel that Christ died for our sins and you are calling THAT gospel, the TRUE gospel, foolish.
Jesus was born and so He was going to die. That is contrary to scripture. The wages of sin is death, someone completely without sin cannot die. Jesus COULD NOT DIE because He had no sin in Him. Scripture says he CHOSE to die, bearing OUR sins. He died for US, for our sins.
I did not say that Jesus shouldn't die because it was shameful, I say that the gospel you try to market reduces Jesus to no more than a burnt offering and devalues his life and teachings. The gospel I "market" which is a lying term in itself because it is not SOLD, it is FREE, but that gospel IS the gospel of salvation, there is no other, it is the gospel taught by all the Reformers and passed down to all the evangelical and Protestant and fundamental churches that inherit the Reformation. Paul said of someone who brings a false gospel, as you are doing, "Let him be accursed."
Of course Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Christians. Of course they deny that Jesus is God, but so what? Is the little god you try to market so petty that It would get pissed if it got dissed? Jesus IS God. Anyone who lies about these things and influences anyone else to believe the lies, causing others to be damned who might have been saved had they not been dissuaded from the truth of salvation, is looking at eternity in one of the deepest hells.
And it still doesn't show God as being good. I certainly call it good that the Son of God Himself was sent by the Father to die in the place of millions of sinners so that we wouldn't have to bear our own punishment in hell. That is a very very good God. And you aren't going to get to benefit from it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's "evil" in the sense of calamity which God brings as judgment, that is not "evil" in the sense of sin which scripture says God cannot commit.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
How twisted it is that everyone here is carrying on about God's including babies in the great judgment of the Flood as if that were a great evil, though it is the judgment of God who cannot sin, but they approve of killing babies in the womb. What a bunch of hypocrites.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Faith, you're attacking your opponents instead of their arguments. Abortion is not the topic. The topic is also not "is (insert poster here) good?"
The topic is "Is God good?" Your opponents, including myself, may or may not be hypocrites. That has absolutely no bearing on whether or not your god is good. And, of course, since your god is a mass murderer (as portrayed by the fiction of the Bible), he is evil.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are trying to hold me responsible for something Calvin said which I haven't studied. I don't have to agree with everything he said in order to be a Calvinist or belong to a Calvinist Baptist church, and i don't have to account to you for anything he said.
Whether he is right or not about how we inherit sin through Adam I haven't studied and I don't know. Perhaps he is right. I know we are "in Christ" when we become believers the same way we were "in Adam" through natural birth. Whether that is through nature or decree of God i have no opinion but the fact is true, that we do inherit Adam's sin.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yawn.
Sorry but childish taunts carry no weight. But nothing you posted has any bearing on what I said. The gospel you market make God look like a fool, makes Jesus nothing more than a burnt offering and totally diminishes the value of Jesus life and teachings and you say I am contrary to scripture and lying? You keep asserting that you have the TRUTHTM which can only be described as an example of extreme hubris. I admit that what you try to sell is cheap and so attractive, but as I said above it just diminishes God to a pitiful caricature of anything worthy of respect or worship. It's the gospel of "What's in it for me" and one that Jesus laugh about. Worry not though, I will pray for your soul and I imagine God is big enough to forgive you. If you want we can play dueling quote mines if you want. That's one of the neat things about the Bible, it is filled with so many contradictions that you can support any position with a Biblical quote. But according to the Bible stories, Jesus was not without sin. He showed times when he was selfish, snapped at his mother, had temper tantrums and doubts. While he was here alive with us He was just human, and anyone born of woman will die.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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