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Author | Topic: Is God good? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Your innuendos or accusations of untruthfulness do not make sense to me. Your charges of being a liar and otherwise less than straightforward do not make sense to me. But if you're having that hard of a time trusting that I am not involved with honest dialogue, albeit rather opinionated, its your own problem, not mine. You're resorting to poisoning the well. I don't resort to calling people liars just because I strongly disagree with them. Nor do I. I call people liars because they tell lies, untruthful if they don't tell the truth, and dishonest if they make stuff up without spending five minutes to find out the facts about the subject on which they wish to bloviate. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
For those still contemplating where to stand on the issue of whether Hitler and his Germany was enfluenced by Darwin's Evolution -
Scientific Racism - The Eugenics of Social Darwinism To this discussion the most important part of this video I think is from 29:00 discussing the enfluence of Darwin's concepts.See around 53:28 . She speaks of British, I know. She goes on to Germany. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eX5T68TQIo Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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For those still wondering whether jaywill has any facts that he is willing to present in favor of his fantasies, the answer is apparently still no.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
First, Social Darwinism has NOTHING to do with Darwin and again, that still has nothing to do with the topic.
If the stories of the Biblical Flood, Joshuah or the Exodus were true then the god character in the stories is far more evil than Hitler. Oh, and we don't debate by links, particularly not YouTube links.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The mentioning of slavery as in indentured servitude widely practiced in ancient times, seems heavily designed to protect the slave from abuse. Do you hold the belief that slavery described in the Bible was mere indentured servitude? Perhaps you hold that belief honestly, but the truth is that the Bible describes both indentured servitude AND true slavery. Indentured servitude? Or chattel slavery? From Leviticus 25:
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Dr. Adaquate's quote -
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14) Now I take a turn to call Dr. Adaquate dishonest for excluding important information about the capturing of the enemy's women to become WIVES, not sex slaves. Though Dr. Adaquate references the verses as 10 - 14 (10 THROUGH 14) the doctor curiously excluded verse 13 - 14:
Verse 11 - "And you see a beautiful woman among the captives and desire her and would take her to yourself as a wife. Verse 12 - You shall bring her within your house, and she shall shave her head, trim her nails, Verse 13 - And take her clothes of captivity away from her. And she shall dwell in your house and mourn her father and mother for a full month. And afterwards you shall go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be a wife to you. Verse 14 - And if [after a time] you do not delight in her, you shall let her go wherever she wishes. But you must not sell her for money; you shall NOT DEAL WITH HER AS A SLAVE, because you have humbled her." You want to MARRY one of the captive women ?Okay, she lives in your house not as a captive for a full month. You let her mourn for her family for that time while you support her and do not touch her. Afterwards you can marry her and be her HUSBAND (not slave master) and she can be your WIFE. You shall not deal with her as a SLAVE. If you change your fickle mind, she goes out as a divorced wife. Presumably with the proper certificate to protect her from your lusty wishy washy whims on any given lonely night. Now WHY didn't Dr. Adaquate adaquately quote the passage as he advertized ? Because what he accuses me of he has just given example of in spades - dishonest and sloppy research. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Where in those verse does state what happens if the captive women doesn't want to be a wife to the soldier that just kidnapped her from her home?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: I challenge anyone to supply an equivalent ancient near eastern law outlining instructions to captive women in war as fair as what was prescribed here to the Hebrews in Deuteronomy. We can see why the Hebrew kings had a reputation of being merciful. (see First Kings 20:31) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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We can see why the Hebrew kings had a reputation of being merciful. (see First Kings 20:31) You christians sure have a morbid way of using the word merciful."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Anti kidnapping laws in the OT -
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be out to death." (Exodus 21:16) "If a man kidnaps is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that THIEF shall DIE; so you shall purge the evil from among you." (Deut. 24:7) The POW - prisoner of war must not then be considered as kidnapped person. God made societal improvements upon two inevitable cultural practices of ancient Near Eastern societies - Indentured Servitude (slavery) and POWs in warfare. Dr. Adaquate then quotes this passage, presumably to negate my pointing out kidnapping was condemned in OT and NT.
And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee (Deuteronomy 20:13-14) It would be amazing to live in a war-free world. Since war was a way of life in the ancient Near East God did prescribe some laws to His Israel about proper conduct should they go to war. When the Lord GIVES - indicates that the city has REJECTED Israel's terms of peace. It should not be assumed that terms of peace were not first offered as would often be the case in warfare.
"When you draw near to a city to fight against it, you shall proclaim peace to it. If it responds with peace to you and opens [its gates] to you, all the people found within it shall become your forced labor; and they shall serve you. But if it does not make peace with you, you shall besiege it." (vs. 10-12) I may speak about the forced labor in another post. Although rape was a common feature in Near Eastern warfare, the Israelite soldiers were prohibited from raping women. Sex was permitted only within the bounds of marital commitment. Kidnapping for sex slavery was forbidden - (Exodus 22:16-17, Deut. 22:23-29) Marriages in Israel were not entered into lightly. The woman POW was a fact of warfare. The laws of Moses benefitted and protected the female POW. Of course left homeless she would probably resort to prostitution or left for starvation. The homeless woman was in a very bad situation in ancient times. The perspective soldier / husband of a woman POW could not even marry too easily and immediately as was seen in Deut. 21:10-14.. The separation process allowed for a period of reflection in the man. The seriousness of marriage was contemplated while the POW lived under the support of the soldier. She was given time to make a transitional break with the tragic past. The laws of the sanctity of marriage must accompany the treatment of the woman POW. The women captured in war were not left to be outcasts but rather laws facilitated them being integrated into Israelite society. Had they been slaves, there were laws protecting run away slaves. There were punishments to those who returned run away slaves to their masters. Israel was commanded to offer safe harbor to foriegn runaway slaves (Deut. 23:15-16). The fugitive harboring laws applied also to Israelite servants who left harsh employers to seek refuge. Compare that with the Fugitive Slave Laws of the American South. The laws governing slaves running away in the US are comperable to the ancient Code of Hammurabi. Ancient Lipit-Ishtar, Eshuna and Hittite laws called for fines for those helping fugitive slaves. Just like divorce was against God's will He made protective provisions for the woman should the divorce happen so also God made provision for the inevitability of war. It should be noted that the distintion is made between the nations that God specifically on a one time bases ordained to be judged in the entering in to Canaan and the nations which were far off.
"Thus shall you do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not among the cites of these [Canaanite] nations. But of the cities of these peoples which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not allow anything that breaths to live; But you must utterly destroy them: the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, just as Jehovah your God has commanded you. So that they do not teach you to do according to all their abominations which they do for their gods ..." (Deut. 15-18) That includes burning their children in the fire to Molech.That includes religion whoredom and temple fornication. That includes sex with near relatives and with animals. That includes deep demonic covenants and consecrating things and possessions of all kinds to Satanic powers of deep occultism. These were once in history special judgments of non repeatable nature. So Deut. 20:10-15 concerns general warfare which most nations could hardly avoid. The judges and priests of ancient Israel were not insensative to the cause of people who were fleeing from harsh treatment. This included consideration of POWs who ran away from harsh male soldier captors. The laws of the Hebrews show improvement over general practices of surrounding cultures. They show a movement TOWARDS a more just society while recognizing the inevitable practices of the ancient world. We see anti-kidnapping, anti-harm, anti-slave return regulations in Exodus 21:16, 20, 26-27 and Deuteronomy 23:15-16 and 24:7. Under such laws antibellum slavery as practiced in the Americas could not have existed. War was unavoidable to most nations, covenanted to Yahweh or not. God's laws minimized the effects of war. How the survivors were to be treated is given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You christians sure have a morbid way of using the word merciful. Trolling is easy. Discuss. Explain yourself please. Use the passage in consideration (1 Kings 20:31). How was this a morbid understanding of the word merciful ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
You use a verse from your book that describes how to take a woman captive and use THAT as an example of mercy. You really are a twisted, sick individual. I can't believe I even have to explain myself to you.
Verse 11 - "And you see a beautiful woman among the captives and desire her and would take her to yourself as a wife. There you go, you want that chick? Take her, she's yours. What's that? You don't give a shit if she wants to marry you? Of course you don't.
Verse 12 - You shall bring her within your house, and she shall shave her head, trim her nails, Shave a woman's head....so kind and merciful of you.
Verse 13 - And take her clothes of captivity away from her. And she shall dwell in your house and mourn her father and mother for a full month. And afterwards you shall go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be a wife to you. Take her clothes and make her mourn her parents naked? That is mercy? The same parents YOU JUST MURDERED? Then you force her to "marry" you. omg so kind and merciful of you!
Verse 14 - And if [after a time] you do not delight in her, you shall let her go wherever she wishes. But you must not sell her for money; you shall NOT DEAL WITH HER AS A SLAVE, because you have humbled her." After you raped the shit out of her, kick her ass to the curb, thus rendering her useless because the barbarians of the time only want virgins. You, jaywill, are a sick fuck if you think what you just quoted is an example of mercy. This is just more proof that the god you pander is evil. QED edit:
Trolling is easy What is it with every one of you on this forum laying the accusation of trolling at the drop of a hat? You really have no idea what a troll is.... Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You use a verse from your book that describes how to take a woman captive and use THAT as an example of mercy. You really are a twisted, sick individual. I can't believe I even have to explain myself to you. It was far more merciful then for her to be raped at the end of the battle day. That was more the norm when armies conquered a city. It was a divine move towards a more just society. You cannot see the laws were given to prevent that kind of behavior? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Take her clothes and make her mourn her parents naked? Naked ?!? Go back to sleep. You aren't even thinking about understanding what is written in the Bible.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
quote: jaywill writes: The POW - prisoner of war must not then be considered as kidnapped person. God made societal improvements upon two inevitable cultural practices of ancient Near Eastern societies - Indentured Servitude (slavery) and POWs in warfare. Jaywill, are you trying to tell us that the verse about kidnapping one's fellow countryman is about POW's or about indentured slavery? That 'interpretation' is beyond ridiculous. Neither Exodus 21:16 nor Deuteronomy 24:7 have anything to do with POWs. In fact, let's look at Exodus 21:16 again.
quote: That "found in his hand part". Isn't that saying that simply having the stolen person is to be punished by death? What kind of POW or indentured servant is acquired by theft? Why isn't this just impressment? or kidnapping?
Kidnapping for sex slavery was forbidden I understand the distinction between a forced marriage and a sex slave. I just hope don't find the prescribed treatment all that merciful. Wouldn't excusing such treatment be evidence of moral relativism? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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