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Author Topic:   Is God good?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 616 of 722 (685379)
12-22-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
12-21-2012 11:16 AM


No healing Just Grace
God said that grace was all he was getting - i.e. he wasn't going to be healed.
Its too bad that you don't realize like Paul what a treasure
grace was.
Do you have something better than the grace of God ?
What is it?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-21-2012 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by jar, posted 12-22-2012 9:04 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 619 by ringo, posted 12-22-2012 10:45 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 623 by kofh2u, posted 12-22-2012 1:31 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 617 of 722 (685381)
12-22-2012 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
12-22-2012 8:41 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
NSAIDs and MRIs and Insulin and Cat Scans and vaccines and antibiotics and ...

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 8:41 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 618 of 722 (685382)
12-22-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by NoNukes
12-21-2012 9:21 AM


So you've decided to stop defending forced marriages? Good, because those forced marriages were preceded by and included rape. That's right. What you called 'facilitated them being integrated into Israelite society' is rape. I also see that you are no longer trying to label owning people and their descendants as chattel as indentured servitude.
How do you know for certain that Deut. 21:10-14 is absolultely a forced marriage ?
Can you produce any rabbinical writings indicating rape and forced marriage was understood by Jewish scholars in Deut. 21:10-14 ?
Produce your evidence that rape and forced marriage is the only or even major rabbinical interpretation of that passage.
While you are at it you can produce proof that the passage calls for the woman to be fully naked in the house for one month. (If you were the poster claiming that was the meaning of her putting off the cloths of her captivity).
It just discard "her captive's garb" not discard her garb or all garb.
"You must not treat her as a slave" (v.14)
Prove to me that the Jewish master was permitted to rape his slave. Chapter and verse -
"AFTER that [her mourning] you may go into her and be her husband." (v.13)
Prove that the Hebrew man was permitted with no penalty to go into a female before becomming her husband. Where is the instruction? Where does it occur without some associated discipline, fine to the family or other punishment ?
And why did it say IF she's beautiful and you desire to MARRY ?
"suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman whom you desire AND WANT TO MARRY" (v.11 NRSV)
Why didn't it just STOP at " ... beautiful woman whom you desire " [period] ? If rape was the will of God than that is ALL that was needed to be said. You saw her and you desired her not "you desire AND WANT TO MARRY"
" You must not treat her as a slave , since you have dishonored her" (v.14)
If to have sex with her and send her away is the "dishonor" her what makes you think rape is suggested ?
Explain your logic with something else beside pompous selfrighteous grumbling. Do some home work and produce some evidence that your exegesis is at least accepted among either OT or NT scholars.
Double talk. If your argument were a bit better they might rise to the level of being sophistry.
You are about to show us all how to back up your own interpretation. Better get busy. I expect you to produce evidence that Deut. 21:10-14 is definitely, without any doubt a divine ordination to RAPE and that the captive woman has absolutely NO other choice but a forced marriage.
That's your next post I hope.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2012 9:21 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2012 11:57 AM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 619 of 722 (685385)
12-22-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
12-22-2012 8:41 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
Its too bad that you don't realize like Paul what a treasure
grace was.
It's true that I don't consider, "I could kill you but I won't," a treasure. I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 8:41 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by kofh2u, posted 12-22-2012 1:13 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 625 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:58 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 620 of 722 (685396)
12-22-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by jaywill
12-20-2012 11:03 AM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
Years ago I was told that some serious venereal diseases entered into the human sphere from ANIMALS. This means that humans had sex with animals and introduced these venereal diseases into people.
School yard stories are not evidence.
You should research before you speak. Some venereal diseases came from consuming primates not fucking them.
Edited by Theodoric, : Sorry kid must have hit something before I posted

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2012 11:03 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:47 PM Theodoric has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 621 of 722 (685397)
12-22-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by jaywill
12-22-2012 9:13 AM


Not accepting your shift...
How do you know for certain that Deut. 21:10-14 is absolultely a forced marriage ?
Why don't you tell me how you escape that conclusion. Can you produce any rabbinical writings indicating that a captive's meaningful consent was required before the marriage. Certainly none is included in the text. If you want to go beyond the text, then you should get going.
While you are at it you can produce proof that the passage calls for the woman to be fully naked in the house for one month.
I don't believe 'naked for a month' to be a correct interpretation. Perhaps you should address that demand to someone else.
And why did it say IF she's beautiful and you desire to MARRY ?
"suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman whom you desire AND WANT TO MARRY"
You truly see nothing problematic here? I think you do. Why did you select the NSRV translation here?
And what kind of ceremony do you think is implied by "and after that thou shalt go in unto her"?
If to have sex with her and send her away is the "dishonor" her what makes you think rape is suggested ?
That would be the sex under the circumstances where you killed off her family and the male members of her tribe. I don't care about the month of mourning. I do care about the the unilateral decision about who gets the honor of becoming your third wife in those circumstances.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 9:13 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2012 9:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3849 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 622 of 722 (685401)
12-22-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ringo
12-22-2012 10:45 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
It's true that I don't consider, "I could kill you but I won't," a treasure. I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.
In what way does God annoy people except in promoting sexual prudence against the culture that bothers everyone to notice nakedness and a focus on sexual promiscuity?
That Christians push back against this destructive force that destroys the Family and eventually the nation seems no more aggressive or unfair than the purveyors of pornography in advertising and the media in general everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ringo, posted 12-22-2012 10:45 AM ringo has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3849 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 623 of 722 (685403)
12-22-2012 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
12-22-2012 8:41 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
Do you have something better than the grace of God ?
The grace of our god is that man has the ability to image Truth and hence cope with the facts-of-life.
Who can argue with that?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the truth, the way, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 8:41 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 624 of 722 (685420)
12-22-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Theodoric
12-22-2012 11:52 AM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
School yard stories are not evidence.
That info did not come to me in a school yard. I am trying to locate the source for my own curiosity.
You should research before you speak. Some venereal diseases came from consuming primates.
I didn't say that other ways could not be the cause as well. Did I ?
And you just didn't do anything that I failed to do, Ie. just assert something with no reference.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2012 11:52 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2012 5:19 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 625 of 722 (685421)
12-22-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ringo
12-22-2012 10:45 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.
You mean you would like to revoke His sunshine, His rain, His air, His gravity, His process of human love, marriage, birth, growth, etc.
You would like to revoke His entire creation from under your feet and from over your head.
The sound mind He blessed you with, you wish He hadn't bothered too?
The use of your limbs, organs, legs, hands for what purposes you prefer, you wish He had not granted those blessings as well ?
In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone.
You sound like a real spoiled brat.
And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball.
Get out of here already.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ringo, posted 12-22-2012 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 11:47 AM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 626 of 722 (685422)
12-22-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by jaywill
12-22-2012 4:47 PM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
I actually did misspeak. One theory is some came from exposure to the body fluids when butchering.
You can read anything about origins of HIV in order to read the evidence.
HIV - Wikipedia

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:47 PM jaywill has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3849 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 627 of 722 (685437)
12-22-2012 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by NoNukes
12-21-2012 3:44 PM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
The problem is not so much that the Jews did these things way back when. The problem is with their claims that God told them to do all of those things.
1.33 Billion muslims still hear God saying pretty muchthe same thing, don't they?
God de facto created men who KNOW that the sexually promiscuous liberal progressive feminist attitude is destructive to the family.
The message is that this behavior will lead to extinction because man, the social anomal he is, is not adapting to the nature he must in order to avoid extinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2012 3:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2012 10:08 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 629 by jar, posted 12-22-2012 10:17 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 628 of 722 (685452)
12-22-2012 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by kofh2u
12-22-2012 7:05 PM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
1.33 Billion muslims still hear God saying pretty muchthe same thing, don't they?
No, I don't believe God said that stuff to anyone.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by kofh2u, posted 12-22-2012 7:05 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by kofh2u, posted 12-23-2012 10:27 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 629 of 722 (685453)
12-22-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by kofh2u
12-22-2012 7:05 PM


Re: rule of war??? or not?
God de facto created men who KNOW that the sexually promiscuous liberal progressive feminist attitude is destructive to the family.
Far from being good, that god sounds like a reactionary bigot and misogynist.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by kofh2u, posted 12-22-2012 7:05 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 630 of 722 (685454)
12-22-2012 10:20 PM


Dr. Adaquate, a number of posts back, supplied a link on research into writings which were listed under the bans of Nazis.
His evidence included something called "primitive Darwin" and this recommendation also -
quote:
All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.
Then I came across these examples Hitler's more hostil words against Christianity. They well could have qualified to be banned as well. For they ridicule, belittle and besmirch the Christian faith.
Quotations attributed to Adolf Hitler are from Hitler's Table Talk [London: Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953 ]:
quote:
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together ... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity ... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (pp.6-7)
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. " (p.75)
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mocery ... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunized against the disease. " (pp. 118-119)
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p. 339)
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors - but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity .... My regret will have been that I couldn't ... behold [its demise]. (p.278)
When I sort through the mass hysteria and confusion which was the Third Reich I have to include these examples of what Hitler's real attitude was about Christianity.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : "I shall [NEVER] come personally to terms with the Christian lie"

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2012 3:33 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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