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Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Stile writes:
Sure. And we can apply creationist standards to get the same results that creationists are getting. I don't think it's very useful to equate internal consistency with objectivity.
I think NoNukes's point is that Faith's standard taken as is, from Faith, is an objective standard in the sense that anyone can apply Faith's standard to achieve the same results that Faith is getting.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.
I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Faith writes: Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread. It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion. Maybe PD will contribute her answer to you, but mine is that the question is straightforward, are the Trinity and hell derived from the Bible or not? If we have to take into account all the ways the Bible can be understood and interpreted we'll be here forever.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I agree with Faith. To try for an understanding of how we are to understand the Bible in general before proceeding would be fruitless.
This is my personal general opinion. When becoming a member of EvC, there are no prerequisite levels of knowledge, experiences, or beliefs. The membership probably covers all the levels. Debating on the internet isn't really geared towards mutual understanding. Some debaters (both sides) are rather hostile to accepting or even considering new ideas. We've seen on EvC that threads do not normally end with opposing sides coming to a mutual understanding. That is why it is important to present the position one is taking concerning the topic of debate and provide support (facts and logic) for that position. Since this is a debate forum there will be counter arguments that one will need to counter with more facts and reasoning. Even among those who study the Bible, there are differences of opinion concerning interpretation and understanding; which is why debaters (both sides) should provide support for how they are interpreting the scriptures so the opposition can understand how their opponent came to their conclusion. With all the varieties of religion out there, it isn't really practical in this setting to try and determine how we are to understand the Bible in general before proceeding with a debate. Each is defending their own position; so odds are, a mutual agreement would not be reached or would quickly disappear in the next debate. The topic is very clearly about Biblical support for the Doctrines of the Trinity and Hell.
Intellectually-honest and intellectually-dishonest debate tactics
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
OK The problem is though that if you try and understand either hell or the trinity from Faith's perspective it all boils down to picking what appear to be relevant verses and then saying that there is your answer.
It is my contention that the Bible is to be read as a narrative, (of course one which includes all sorts of narratives within the big story), and as a result you come at it from a very different angle. In my view one or two verses wouldn't be considered conclusive. It is like the discussion of Thomas saying saying My Lord and my God. By Faith's reading that would be conclusive. Jesus is God whereas I would understand Christ's deity by working through the Gospels and then referencing what Jesus said with the OT to sort out just what He meant. As a result both Faith and I see Jesus as God in some sense but we actually mean slightly different things by that. By the way, I realize that to a degree I am simplifying Faith's position but I contend that essentially it is correct. At any rate there really wasn't much further we could go with the discussion anyway. ThanksHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Alter2Ego Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
quote:ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN: Right. That's what you keep doing: wash, rinse, and repeat. You've asked me the same question repeatedly, and I keep giving you the same answer, along with definitions from the dictionary as to the meaning of the word "eternal." DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "Eternal means not having a beginning or an end."http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal QUESTION #3 to PURPLE DAWN: The dictionary says one who is eternal can have no end to his/her life. Was Jesus alive or did his life end during the three days the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "without beginning or end; existing through all time; everlasting" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary)
QUESTION #4 to PURPLE DAWN: The dictionary says one who is eternal must exist through all time. Did Jesus continue to exist as a living being during the three days that the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO? Just so you know, if you come back with the same wash, rinse, and repeat about Jesus being eternal and that therefore the rules of eternity do not apply to him, you will get the same response from me, as demonstrated above."That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
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Alter2Ego Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
quote:ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: That's exactly why I ignored your previous explanation, because it defies logic. QUESTION #2 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: Is death the opposite of life? YES or NO?"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
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Alter2Ego Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
quote:QUESTION #3 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: So you're telling me that the Bible was lying when it said Jesus died? TRUE or FALSE? FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations. The verse of scripture you previously posted during your fallacious claim that Jesus was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits is not saying that at all. I ignored you the first time when you posted it, because I figured you were not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, or chapters). But since you insist that I respond (because you are complaining that I am ignoring you), I will respond for the time being. If you post the verse again, be prepared to be shown the context this time around."That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Yes, she argues from her perspective, you argue from your perspective and I argue from my perspective etc. That's the debate. Each provides support for their perspective and how they see what they do. That's why it is important that we try to show support for our logic with facts or reasoning. Sometimes the reasoning is just because that's the status quo for the belief system and on the religious side, that's acceptable as an answer.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree with purpledawn.
Here is the original topic, edited by me to make more readable(since altar-to ego doesnt yet know how to use our quote system)
ALTAR TO EGO writes:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:
1. THE TRINITYThe teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die). 2. HELLFIREThe teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan. QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire. 2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.
A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.
B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.
C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.
3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?
4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?
5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead? "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)
6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?
7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.
8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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From Message 323:
quote:ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: That's exactly why I ignored your previous explanation, because it defies logic. You can't just say "that defies logic". You have to actually explain how it defies logic. Kinda like how I explained why your post was illogical when I refuted it earlier. I'll say it again: This whole argument rests on you defining "death" to be equivalent to an "end", but in the case of the story of Jesus in the Bible, his death was not his end so your argument fails. You have never addressed this refutation. Simply avoiding it by just going "oh, that's illogical" is a failure on your part.
QUESTION #2 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: Is death the opposite of life? YES or NO? Typically yes, but in the Bible, no. Jesus' body died but his Spirit lived on. From Message 324:
quote:QUESTION #3 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: So you're telling me that the Bible was lying when it said Jesus died? TRUE or FALSE? False. In fact, your position is the one that makes the Bible out to be lying.
FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations. There's all kinds of inferences that can be made from the Bible that are not explicitly stated. We don't need to find passages that state things exactly in order to understand them as we've phrased them.
The verse of scripture you previously posted during your fallacious claim that Jesus was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits is not saying that at all. I ignored you the first time when you posted it, because I figured you were not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, or chapters). But since you insist that I respond (because you are complaining that I am ignoring you), I will respond for the time being. If you post the verse again, be prepared to be shown the context this time around. The verse is still sitting there in my post waiting to be commented on. Anybody can pull up the whole chapter if they want, there's no reason for me to post it in its entirety here. We can reasonably infer what must have happened for the verses to be true without explicit passages that go into detail. You have not explained why the claim that he was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits was fallacious, you've simply asserted it without argument. I can reject that just as easily.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Alter2Ego writes:
Life and existence are not the same thing. Of course a dead body exists. On the other hand, if it "comes back to life", it isn't really dead.
The dictionary says one who is eternal must exist through all time. Did Jesus continue to exist as a living being during the three days that the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?
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Alter2Ego Member (Idle past 3850 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
quote:ALTER2EGO -to- RINGO: Below are the two definitions of "eternal" that I have posted several times in this thread. Keep your eyes on the words bolded in light green. The answer the questions that follow. DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "without beginning or end; existing through all time; everlasting" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary) QUESTION #1 to RINGO: If a dead body exists, does that mean the person is still alive? YES or NO? QUESTION #2 to RINGO: By definition, an eternal person can never die because an eternal person must exist through all time. During the three days that Jesus was dead, did he continue to exist as a living being? YES or NO? QUESTION #3 to RINGO: If someone died and then "comes back to life," is it not true that they still died and therefore, by default, they could not have been eternal because if they were, they never would have died from the get-go? TRUE or FALSE?"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Alter2Ego writes:
A dead body is not alive and vice versa. Sometimes the line between dead and alive is a bit fuzzy.
If a dead body exists, does that mean the person is still alive? Alter2Ego writes:
Then, by that definition there's no such thing as an eternal person.
By definition, an eternal person can never die because an eternal person must exist through all time. Alter2Ego writes:
See above. The process of dying can sometimes be reversed in its early stages but the state of death is not undoable.
During the three days that Jesus was dead, did he continue to exist as a living being? Alter2Ego writes:
No. The process of dying may have begun but was not completed. The state of death marks the point of no return in the dying process.
If someone died and then "comes back to life," is it not true that they still died... Alter2Ego writes:
See above. There's no such thing as an "eternal person". The inevitablity of death negates the possibility of eternal life.
...they could not have been eternal because if they were, they never would have died from the get-go?
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