|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
My impression is that the Tanakh does not actually speak of The Messiah as such. Rather, The Messiah is a title applied to someone who will fulfil a number of prophecies, notably ruling over a restored Israel which will be acknowledged as God's chosen kingdom.
Accordingly any claim that any other prophecy is Messianic needs to show that it applies to the same person. Even the title messiah is insufficient, since there are any number of messiahs (the Persian emperor Cyrus being a significant example - Isaiah 45:1) To answer the question in the OP, in my view the followers of Jesus started with the conviction that Jesus was The Messiah. When Jesus died some of them dealt with it by becoming more extreme and came up with the idea of the Second Coming to explain away Jesus' failure. This is not to say that they did not believe it - they did. But that doesn't make it anything more than a way of hiding from the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: I could say a lot about your assertions but let's start with thus. How do you know that that passage is explicitly about The Messiah ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: Does it ? I think you'll find that that is just your interpretation - and one that is not supported in any significant way by the text. So, let me repeat the question: How do you know that that passage is explicitly about The Messiah ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
So the word "messiah" appears. But you know perfectly well that "there are many "messiahs"". And since neither of the two messiahs mentioned seem to be doing anything attributed to The Messiah what reason is there to think that either is The Messiah rather than just a messiah ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: Since I'm pretty sure that you know that the word translated as messiah doesn't have to mean The Messiah I'd say that it's pretty obvious to you that I am right.
quote: If they don't have a decent case - and they don't - their opinion isn't worth much.
quote: On the contrary. The fact that you can't support your assertion rather shows that you are the one who has no interest in the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: That may be the way your idols interpret it, but that's hardly a good reason to insist on it.
quote: In other words the fact that you are making a completely unjustified assumption is "irrelevant". Hardly the words of someone with a genuine interest in the truth! The fact is that there is no sound basis to conclude that this passage is about The Messiah. Your claim that it was explicitly about The Messiah is an obvious falsehood as can be seen by anyone who understands that "messiah" is a title applicable to many individuals - as you do. And that is why you will not discuss this issue with me - because you know that I am telling the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: In fact it makes a good deal of sense for it to be written later, and for the Daniel of the book to be a complete fiction. There are clear problems in the book (e.g. "Where's Nabonidus?" - and the failed prophecies) and not one even reasonably clear reference to the man or the book anywhere close to the supposed time of writing.
quote: Having actually READ Daniel, I can say that without doubt Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish resistance to his rule are the central focus. Daniel 8, for instance is quite clear that the End Times centre around the Diadochi states. Try READING it for yourself and see.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
A couple of points NoNukes.
First, Eliahyu is arguing from a Jewish perspective - assuming the truth of the Judaic religion. From that point of view the question of how Jesus fits into the views of Judaism is vitally important. Also we must not forget that Christianity is founded on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (it's even in the name "Christianity") and more, and that the Jewish scriptures show that this is true. If the claims of Christians for Jesus are false from his perspective then that is enough for him. And it should be enough for even non-Jews to consider the claims of Christianity thoroughly suspect. Finally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers. Yet he managed no more than a brief faddish popularity (exaggerated in the Gospels) before being caught and executed by the Romans. That would seem to be something of a failure.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6
|
quote: But it DOES mean that he is coming at it from a Jewish perspective and responses to him need to take that into account. That's the point I was making.
quote: None of it, of course. Taking a critical view of the Gospels, and taking into account the lack of impact that Jesus had outside Christianity is not in any sense rewriting. It's simply taking more of a historian's perspective.
quote: Absolutely. Jesus is at most a footnote in Josephus and no other non-Christian sources from anywhere close to the time think that he amounted to much.
quote: The truth is more important than your pride. Too bad that you can't see that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: And the reason you say that is because you're NOT adequately taking his position into account. THat scripture, to him IS decisive. It may not be to you, but you'd be better off agreeing to differ rather than arguing at cross-purposes.
quote: However, the idea that Jesus is the Messiah is still pervasive in Christianity - do you really think that it should be renamed probably-not-Christ-but-we-don't-care-ianity ? If Jesus isn't the Messiah the rest becomes suspect- or, rather, more suspect.
quote: Of course there's very little GOOD evidence about what Jesus did or did not do. To the point where scholars admit that recovering the historical figure is not really possible. However there are certainly indications that way. e.g. the crucifixion indicates that the Romans thought of him as a rebel. Riding on a donkey into Jerusalem makes the identification with the King of Zechariah 9. The use of Daniel in the Olivet discourse suggests that he believed that Daniel's Kingdom of God would arrive soon.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: Which does not entail arguing that he is right. But I think we can justifiably argue that if a Jewish understanding of the Jewish scriptures points to Jesus not being the messiah at all then there is a real problem with Christian claims that needs to be addressed.
quote: Which doesn't make him wrong. For that you'd have to argue the scriptures themselves.
quote: Where did you "show" this ? Because it certainly isn't true that I'd have to rewrite a word of it.
quote: Again, you're simply wrong here.
quote: Reality is often surprising, especially to people like you.
quote: The entire Book of Acts concerns events AFTER Jesus' death. It really doesn't show that he was that successful in life, did it ? There were about 30,000 Mormons at the time of Joseph Smith's death, so timescales are rather important, too. And obviously numbers can be exaggerated.
quote: Eventually. And much more due to the efforts of Paul than of Jesus.
quote: Keep on living in your topsy-turvy fantasy land.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: But you're missing the hidden assumption that Judaism is correct.
quote: That's not entirely true. Prior to Jesus' arrest the Gospels depict Jesus as being at odds with rival religious leaders, but not with the Jewish people in general. And even that depiction is problematic. The scene with Pilate and the Jewish crowd, however, is frankly unbelievable, even in Mark. There's no record of any custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover and Pilate appears to have been an autocrat with no real respect for the Jews - and as for the Jewish crowd ritually taking responsibility... No, just No. It's pretty clear that the Gospels have a pro-Roman and anti-Jewish bias and with Christianity becoming a Gentile religion trying to exist within the Roman Empire it's entirely likely that the Messianic elements of Jesus' teachings would be watered down. Although, it must be said that the Revelation is still strongly anti-Roman - but even that viewpoint an hardly be help but be influenced by the fact that Jesus did not conquer or rule.
quote: But what would you expect given the paucity of evidence, and the vast majority of it reflecting the Christian view of decades after Jesus' death ? As I've already said you will find no compelling arguments either way because the historical Jesus is lost to us.
quote: How about the question of why he would claim to be the fulfilment of those prophecies, if he was not ? Because the prophecies you refer to are those which DEFINE the concept of The Messiah.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: That's a very different question to whether Jesus was The Messiah or not. Really it's off-topic.
quote: It isn't a problem for ME because I don't believe in predictive prophecy. I'd agree that it should be a problem for Christians and Jews, though. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: If you have an answer then that's no reason for not producing it. If you don't then all that is just a bluff.
quote: Well that's not entirely true, is it ? Take the context of Zechariah 9 for a start. And the Romans were worried enough to execute him as a rebel. Now I happen to think that Jesus expected God to do most of the killing, but who knows what would have happened if he had got to a position where armed rebellion was a real possibility ?
quote: Because I wanted to see your full argument. Odd then, that you don't answer my question of where I can find it.
quote: If he did indeed teach that. Which we can't really know. But I'm still waiting to see any real argument that I have to rewrite a word of the Gospels. COme one, Faith. Name one verse - or a larger passage if you need that - that I have to rewrite. And explain WHY I have to rewrite it, rather than, say, simply not believing it to be accurate. RIght now I see less cause for you to accuse me of rewriting them than I have to make the same accusation of Biblical inerrantists like you.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.6 |
quote: That's a hypothetical question. The real question is why you would insist on talking at cross-purposes for no reason.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024