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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 188 of 276 (730050)
06-23-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
06-23-2014 11:41 AM


Re: why not miracle
Perhaps opinion is all that's possible in some cases. Your view that science can tell us whether the scriptural description is possible or not is certainly opinion, reprehensible opinion that puts fallible human thought above God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 12:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 276 (730051)
06-23-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by NoNukes
06-23-2014 11:47 AM


So now you're all feverishly engaged in trying to define what a "clear and simple reading" means as if your view of that carries any more weight than the Biblical Creationist view of it? Wow. The language about these things is NOT simple and clear, it is open to some interpretation. You like your miracle interpretation, but there's no ground for making that view hard and fast, you are merely persuaded by it so leave it at that. I find the language metaphorical and believe it is a way of describing natural processes that still remain mysterious to us. Why are you arguing at this level of angels dancing on the head of a pin anyway?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 187 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 12:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 209 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 2:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 193 of 276 (730059)
06-23-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by jar
06-23-2014 12:07 PM


Re: why not miracle
Again, God wrote the universe, man wrote the Bible. I believe what God wrote not what humans wrote.

No you don't, you believe what humans say about the universe. That's why God inspired the Bible, to save us from our fallible minds.


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 Message 191 by jar, posted 06-23-2014 12:07 PM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 276 (730060)
06-23-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by NoNukes
06-23-2014 12:08 PM


The sham is your crazy insistence that something has to be miraculous just because you can't tell a metaphor from a literal description.

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 Message 192 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 12:08 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 1:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 276 (730062)
06-23-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ringo
06-23-2014 12:22 PM


NN has shown that's his problem, prove that it's mine before you spout off.

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 Message 197 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:32 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 198 of 276 (730064)
06-23-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
06-23-2014 12:03 PM


Re: why not miracle
Prayer works in proportion to the situation. My prayer for millions of people to be spared the evil machinations of Islam contributes something to the mix but just one person isn't going to change the whole problem. You really do need prayer in agreement with others, often many others, to move God to change things on a great scale.

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 Message 190 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 210 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 2:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 199 of 276 (730065)
06-23-2014 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
06-23-2014 12:32 PM


Believing the creation story and the flood story is a clear indication that you can't tell the difference between reality and fiction.

NOT believing it is more an indication that you don't believe God but prefer your own fictions to His revelation of truth, that's all.

And you have not shown that I've confused metaphor with description.


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 Message 197 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 276 (730081)
06-23-2014 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by ringo
06-23-2014 12:45 PM


Re: why not miracle
For worldscale results yes you do.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 206 of 276 (730082)
06-23-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
06-23-2014 12:49 PM


The fiction is yours. You've made up stories about tectonic upheavals during the flood - none of which is in the Bible - in a vain attempt to decrease the amount of water needed.

That's weird. The tectonic activity has nothing to do with the amount of water involved and I never said it did. The EVIDENCE is that tectonic activity occurred after all the strata were in place, and I focus on that as evidence that it didn't take hundreds of millions of years to lay down the strata, but they were laid down in a relatively short period of time, during which no tectonic activity occurred, which one would expect if it had taken such a long time. Has nothing to do with how much water.

And there is nothing wrong with considering physical events in connection with the Biblical record as long as they don't contradict anything there.


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 Message 242 by ringo, posted 06-24-2014 11:53 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 207 of 276 (730084)
06-23-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
06-23-2014 1:19 PM


Re: It's not about me.
Who is calling whom names? Sham this, unbiblical that. You're the namecaller.

I've given adequate support for the idea of the vapor canopy, there is nothing more to say.

The point of the thread was simply to consider if the Biblical sources AS I UNDERSTAND THEM (sheesh) could account for the depth of the Flood and the answer is that the rain alone suffices. End of subject really. Your demands are just something you're throwing at me from who knows where, some completely idiosyncratic musings of your own.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 276 (730085)
06-23-2014 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by JonF
06-23-2014 1:21 PM


Re: Working with real data
All your calculations mean nothing though since there is no way to check any of it. The Bible indicates the existence of something like a vapor canopy, if there is another viable interpretation of that reference we can consider it, but it seems to fit what is required for the forty days and nights of rain so one has to assume that it couldn't have been such a dangerous thing, or there were some mitigating factors you aren't considering. We can't be hard and fast about any of this. Give us another explanation for forty days and nights of rain, we aren't giving up on the Bible, it's the word of God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 203 by JonF, posted 06-23-2014 1:21 PM JonF has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 211 of 276 (730088)
06-23-2014 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by herebedragons
06-23-2014 2:31 PM


Re: Its Literally Metaphoric
Some physicalistic picture of actual openings in the sky as "windows" is the literalistic rendering I'd object to, which leaves metaphor as the meaning of "windows." I would think the word itself as applied to the sky or heavens would be clue enough that it has to be a metaphor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 2:31 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by JonF, posted 06-23-2014 3:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 219 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 3:39 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 212 of 276 (730089)
06-23-2014 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by herebedragons
06-23-2014 2:36 PM


Re: why not miracle
WHAT example of a single person moving God to change things on a great scale? There's the faith of a mustard seed comment but otherwise what are you talking about?

There are lots of scriptures that imply that you have to pray in a certain way to get results, pray persistently, fervently, unceasingly and so on. The woman who kept bugging the judge until he finally gave her the justice she wanted is one example. Faith is a gift, though, and those with great faith may accomplish more in prayer than those with less faith. I extrapolate from these biblical references along with personal experience of course. I have books on prayer too that discuss it as a practice you can develop, quoting lots of scripture of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 210 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 2:36 PM herebedragons has replied

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 Message 213 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 3:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 276 (730094)
06-23-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by herebedragons
06-23-2014 3:13 PM


Re: why not miracle
Hard to see how Elijah and the prophets of Baal is, first, about prayer, and second, about affecting things involving millions on a worldwide scale, and all your other examples are about God's people praying for God's people, and God's chosen prophets and leaders too. I'm thinking of Americans praying to move the governments of the Middle East and Africa to stop persecuting millions of people. I hope we have success, and the fact that Meriam Ibraham was released from her Sudanese imprisonment is encouraging but of course a lot of active intervention was required along with prayer.

But yes this is off topic.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 276 (730095)
06-23-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by JonF
06-23-2014 3:30 PM


Re: Its Literally Metaphoric
What?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by JonF, posted 06-23-2014 3:30 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by JonF, posted 06-24-2014 8:03 AM Faith has replied

  
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