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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Where on earth is that piece of hogwash written? That'll be the Quran, Faith. I believe it mentions Mecca too. Well Bakkah actually, it's name at the time. So that's time and place. Funny how other people's dumb belief sound like hogwash isn't it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Stiles did not ask for eternal benefits. He asked for benefits in the here and now. Purpose and meaning in life can come from any religion. If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
Purposes that are held by people who deny the existence of any being in charge of the universe can only be derived from philosophy. One could have a philosophy to remove suffering in this world at every opportunity but the notion that some people do not deserve rights or have an intrinsic value because you deem them to be evil, will end up causing the world harm and such a purpose would ultimately lead to regret.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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foreveryoung writes:
It has been proven that the creation and the flood are myths. I know you dispute the bible's reckoning but you cannot prove it to be false much less a myth.Izquierdo.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mea culpa. Let me correct my statement then to say that the Bible's historical and geographical references are NOT MERELY CIRCUMSTANTIAL AS CLEARLY IS THE CASE WITH ISLAM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE AUTHENTICATION OF THE REVELATION. You'll argue that too, no doubt, because there is no utterly specious silly argument that doesn't get used against Christians or conservatives at EvC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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FEY writes: If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible. What amazing hubris! Everybody else's belief is is inferior to mine. What crap.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Flood has in fact been proven to explain most of the geological record.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What amazing hubris! Everybody else's belief is is inferior to mine. What crap. It simply isn't possible for one to have chosen the one true religion, according to you. Not sure why not. Seems to be just a personal prejudice. Cuz Christianity IS the one true religion, and that's why I chose it. Probably FY too. Others may say the same about other religions but I don't think it's true, I think other religions are chosen because they appeal to something in the personality. Truth isn't the main thing.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It is impossible for any book to support itself. In fact, it is impossible even for a verifiable piece of evidence to support itself. The verification must come from outside.
Ringo seems to think that it is impossible for the "Bible" to support the idea and belief in itself. Phat writes:
But your "challenge" consists of quoting the Bible. How many times must you be told? You can't quote Treasure Island to prove Treasure Island.
I would challenge this assertion. Phat writes:
Most fiction does that. Thus I have shown that the stories in the Bible indeed can support the belief and ideology and hold their own with modern philosophical thought.Izquierdo.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Let me correct my statement then to say that the Bible's historical and geographical references are NOT MERELY CIRCUMSTANTIAL AS CLEARLY IS THE CASE WITH ISLAM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE AUTHENTICATION OF THE REVELATION. There is absolutely no difference between Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey and Mohamed turning up in Mecca. They're both real places and both occur at specific times. So according to you, must both contribute to authentication. Or neither do. The latter is, of course, the case.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Nope. You have failed, to the point of comedy, in every attempt to do that. Some of you folks seem to think that scientists are some sort of modern-day shamans who will unveil the truths of the universe to us.Izquierdo.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: The OP allows for lack of evidence, and the only evidence possible for the gift of eternal llfe is the testimony of Jesus. Not true Faith. There is also the testimony found in the Glorious Qur'an, the Book of the Dead, the Norse Sagas, the accounts of Olympus and the evidence of reincarnation of Lamas.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
foreveryoung writes: If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible. So you assert yet never provide any support or evidence that is factual.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I addressed the topic with Stile earlier in the thread. I will continue that line of reasoning per your request, jar.
Stile writes: Personally, I believe that meeting God is a one-time initial action. jar always asks how I would even know, but all I can say is that I do. Of course, in an empirical sense, I could be wrong, but I have enough faith that I will at this point in time stand my ground regarding my personal belief. I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about. I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me. Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God.jar has always stated that the God He imagines is unconcerned whether we even believe in "Her" or not---but I believe that God wants a relational communion with each individual. Animals may feel this too, but we call that "instinct". Stile writes: Personally, I prefer to use the term God Confidence rather than Self. It is good to have self-confidence, but perhaps the main difference between myself and others like you is that you believe that our selves and others are all we really have to rely on. It has been my experience that this is not the extent of the truth---but again, I can't objectively prove it. Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God. I always teach it this way. Three Levels.1) Knowing about someone. 2) Meeting someone. 3) Knowing and trusting someone for the rest of your life. Stile writes: What other spirits could there actually be? The human spirit? The secular zeitgeist? Woo?
I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.Stile writes: I think it is wise to not be swayed by other peoples ideas and beliefs, and I think that the fact that you do a form of prayer shows intent and that you will be rewarded for your intentions and actions as much as for your beliefs. Besides, I could never imagine a God who would judge people more on beliefs and confessions than over behavior and actions. I don't think prayer's silly. I just think it isn't necessary. But, if prayer is simply "talking to God" (or attempting to), then I do in fact pray and continue to do so. I just never receive an answer. In which case I continue to ignore the concepts of God that people present to me without any reason to actually give them credence.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: Jesus said He came to give us eternal llfe. You don't have to believe Him but that's the benefit He offers us. Take it or leave it. I can get that from anywhere.
The main focus of the OP is benefits in THIS llfe, however, and I believe there are many but again there wouldn't be any evidence. That's the point.There isn't any difference between devout Christians and devout atheists. Some are very smart, others not so much.Some are very rich, others not so much. Some are very happy, others not so much. Some have lives filled with love and peace, others not so much. But being a "devout Christian" or being a "devout atheist" doesn't have an impact on which category you're going to be in.Therefore - it doesn't make a difference. There is no benefit to being a Christian in a general, average overall sense.There is only a benefit to being a Christian in a personal, specific, subjective sense. Just as there is only a benefit to being an atheist in a personal, specific, subjective sense.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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faoreveryoung writes: If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible. How so? I don't see it.
purposes that are held by people who deny the existence of any being in charge of the universe can only be derived from philosophy. Personal philosophy, yes.Which makes them stronger than obtaining a purpose from any outside source - even an all-powerful, universe-creating God. One could have a philosophy to remove suffering in this world at every opportunity but the notion that some people do not deserve rights or have an intrinsic value because you deem them to be evil, will end up causing the world harm and such a purpose would ultimately lead to regret. What if such a person did not ultimately lead to regret?Then is it greater that God's purpose? What is "God's purpose," anyway? Personal purpose, for me, is greater than God's purpose because it resonates with me. God's purpose does not.Or, at least I think God's purpose doesn't resonate with me - you'd have to tell me what "God's purpose" is for me to know. Unfortunately, God - in his all-powerful, universe-creating ways - isn't capable of offering a purpose to me that resonates stronger than a purpose I generate myself. Therefore God will always be lacking in this way. Behind the curve. Unable to ever catch up. It's not His fault - to me, purpose is subjective. I don't blame God or really care that God's purpose isn't enough for me. I already have a purpose that is stronger, for me - the ones I generate for myself.
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