Did the Flood really happen?

Repeating false statements\assertions\ignorant c mments doesn't make them any truer than their original bald falseness. Too small doesn't matter in the slightest. It''s just a matter of time. And you have a major problem with time. (see Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1).There is no such thing as the wrong place. Says the person who insists on being wrong over and over and over.Now it occurs to me, that you may be confusing the geological column with rocks, not actively deposited sediments that have not yet lithified.Is that possible?Enjoy

... is that you are wrong. The geological column covers ALL dirt/rock/sediment surfaces, on dry land AND UNDER WATER.Dry land is usually a surface with net EROSION, which supplies the sediments being deposited on the geological column in rivers lakes and, yes virginia, oceans.Only a person willingly ignorant of the basics of geology cycles would claim otherwise ...

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INTRODUCTION TO GEOLOGY - GEOLOGICAL CYCLE

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Geological Cycle

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The Geological Cycle of the Earth is mainly comprised of three subcycles, which are known as the Hydrological Cycle, the Petrological Cycle and the Tectonic Cycle. The Hydrological Cycle includes all studies and measurements regarding the motion of the water in the Earth's atmosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere. Rock formations corrode from exposure to the atmosphere and the hydrosphere's procedures, and therefore reposited material from the Natural Terrestrial Surface ends up in the ocean. As a result, rock formations are created, fragmented, relocated and destroyed, all part of the significant process of the Petrological Cycle. Large parts of the fragmented and relocated rock formations are buried deep, a process that is later followed by the plaiting and lifting of huge pieces of the Earth's crust, which give birth to new mountain ranges. This procedure is part of the Tectonic Cycle, shaping our planet's Natural Surface by causing immersion of large pieces of land over long periods of time.

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Geologists have been monitoring the motions of those materials within subcycles mentioned above for more than 150 years, and therefore vast amounts of accurate data that can be utilized by Engineers in order to reach safe conclusions regarding the nature of the Tectonic Cycle have been acquired. It is fair to say that if it weren't for the constant lifting of giant pieces of the Earth's crust due to tectonic activity, corrosion would have destroyed all surface layers of the crust and all materials, transported by wind and water, would have already accumulated in the ocean. It is obvious that the Earth's tectonic activity balances the destructive effects of corrosion on the Natural Terrestrial Surface, ...

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It's a cycle of erosion ("corrosion"), deposition, lithification, uplift, rinse and repeat.Limiting your discussion to only areas that are net erosion areas means you are only looking at half the cycle.OBVIOUSLY, if you only look at areas of net erosion you will not observe any building of the geological column there.So what happens to all that sediment that has eroded away? It is added to the geological column in the locations where it is deposited as sediments ... by wind or water.A chance to learn ...enjoy

Oh dear, the hubris of wanton ignorance ... so many erroneous assertions ... The "stack" goes down to the bottom of the crust, so it does exist on the sea floor as the sediment there goes down to the crust. ... because they are areas of net deposition, where the geological column is building. In contrast to you narrow vision myopic view of land geological columns that are in areas of net erosion -- part of the geological cycle pr message Message 913. You CAN educate yourself on this rather than try to make it all up. It does exist on the sea floor because that is not the bottom of the crust. We can see this clearly from the ...

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Mid-ocean ridges

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A mid-ocean ridge (MOR) is a seafloor mountain system formed by plate tectonics. ... This feature is where seafloor spreading takes place along a divergent plate boundary. The rate of seafloor spreading determines the morphology of the crest of the mid-ocean ridge and its width in an ocean basin. The production of new seafloor and oceanic lithosphere results from mantle upwelling in response to plate separation. The melt rises as magma at the linear weakness in the oceanic crust, and emerges as lava, creating new crust and lithosphere upon cooling. The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is a spreading center that bisects the North and South Atlantic basins; hence the origin of the name 'mid-ocean ridge'. Most oceanic spreading centers are not in the middle of their hosting ocean basis but regardless, are called mid-ocean ridges. Mid-ocean ridges around the globe are linked by plate tectonic boundaries and appear similar to the seam of a baseball. The mid-ocean ridge system thus is the longest mountain range on Earth, reaching about 65,000 km (40,000 mi).

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Mid-ocean ridge cross section (cut away view)

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See that gray layer of marine sediment being deposited on top of the green layer of "ocean crust (Basalt/Grabbro) ~5-7 km" thick? that is the geological column in those areas. Below that is the orange lithosphere mantle ... the top of this mantle layer is the bottom of the geological column in this area.The sedimentary deposits are in the process of forming the layer that will define the "anthropocen age". Time has not ended, it continues, just as the geological processes and cycles continue. Probably most notable for the high levels of radioactive material ... Except that it is built on the geological column/s in the ocean floor/s. ... AND everywhere on earth, INCLUDING across the Oceans. ... that were once ocean bottoms in the past. Nope. It is evidence that the sedimentary deposits occurred when that area was under water, oceans covered much of NA in times past. Plate tectonics explains it, the flood does not. Only in your dreams.Bada BING. (so much fun)EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Looking only at areas of net erosion does not provide evidence that geological processes have ended.Why?Because you ignore area of net deposition where the geological column is actively growing.In fact the area of net erosion also show that geological processes have not stopped, because they are actively eroding ... and that sediment from the erosion is going somewhere ...Think about it, Faith. All you need to do is really think about that missing sediment ... what is it doing?Enjoy

it's not faith, Faith, it's what the objective empirical physical geological evidence shows. It's what the evidence from the past shows. It's what the continuing processes of the geological cycle show. The known geological processes explain ALL the evidence, not just cherry picked portions taken out of context to bolster a magical fantasy belief.Believing something else happened by magic (because no evidence for it) is faith, Faith.Enjoy

The layers of the Precambrian, and the Cambrian through the Holocene were once ocean floor, and that is where they were "built" ... what exists on the sea floor is therefore part of the geological column process where new sediment deposits are building the geological column, and will continue to do so into the future. WHen the sea floor meets the continents and they are pushed up, then these layers become part of the geological column for mountains.The "stack" is whatever lies below any point on the earth.Using a false definition leads to false conclusions.Enjoy

Except that this strawman definition excludes areas where the geological column is growing. Except that this strawman definition excludes areas where the geological column is growing. Except that this strawman definition excludes areas where the geological column is growing.Strawman Definitions do not make a valid argument.Enjoy

The "Geological COLUMN" is a result of geological processes. For that to end, those processes must also end. Including erosion, deposition, uplift, etc. and rather obviously those processes have not ended, as we see erosion, deposition and uplift all over the earth. The geological column is not the timescale, because it is different in different parts of the world.

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The geologic time scale (GTS) is a system of chronological dating that relates geological strata (stratigraphy) to time. It is used by geologists, paleontologists, and other Earth scientists to describe the timing and relationships of events that have occurred during Earth's history. The table of geologic time spans, presented here, agree with the nomenclature, dates and standard color codes set forth by the International Commission on Stratigraphy (ICS).

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The time scale is used to date the strata in each geological column anywhere on earth. The geological column does not define the time scale. They are not equivalent.AND obviously the timescale has not ended. To you and only you. In your imagination ...... ignoring the evidence of ongoing geological processes that are building columns in areas of net deposition. What we see in the geological record around the world is that the earth has undergone substantial change over billions of years of gradual processes that are the same as what we see occurring today. Nope. Somehow your strawman argument fails to convince me. I wonder why? Perhaps because your definition is incomplete and inadequate? Can you show what these differences are? I can't see any. We have compared them, both in type of deposition, and in the time scale rate of deposition needed to accumulate the deposits seen. They are all similar to what we observe today. Insanity? Fantasy? Delusion?Did I guess right?Enjoy

How big would they need to be for you to say they "continue the geological column/time?" Just trying to get an idea of the scale. What location would they have to be in? How extensive?You're model, IIRC, is that the flood encompassed the earth, with large waves laying down sediment in alternating layers, yes?Why don't we see those layers at the bottom of the ocean? Is this why you discount ocean floors as part of the geolgical column?Just curious ...... next,

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The Green River Formation is an Eocene geologic formation that records the sedimentation in a group of intermountain lakes in three basins along the present-day Green River in Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah. The sediments are deposited in very fine layers, a dark layer during the growing season and a light-hue inorganic layer in the dry season. Each pair of layers is called a varve and represents one year. The sediments of the Green River Formation present a continuous record of six million years. The mean thickness of a varve here is 0.18 mm, with a minimum thickness of 0.014 mm and maximum of 9.8 mm.[1]

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The sedimentary layers were formed in a large area named for the Green River, a tributary of the Colorado River. The three separate basins lie around the Uinta Mountains of northeastern Utah:

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Areas of oil shale of the Green River Formation, Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming (USGS)

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• an area in northwestern Colorado east of the Uintas
• a larger area in the southwest corner of Wyoming just north of the Uintas known as Lake Gosiute
• the largest area, in northeastern Utah and western Colorado south of the Uintas, known as Lake Uinta

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Fossil Butte National Monument in Lincoln County, Wyoming is in a part of the formation known as Fossil Lake because of its abundance of exceptionally well preserved fish fossils.

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Yet it is curiously absent from the Grand Canyon ... how do you explain this absence?How do you explain the very thin varve layers, "mean thickness of a varve here is 0.18 mm," of alternating light and dark layers of very fine sediment (and we have talked about how long it takes to deposit very fine material from suspension in water)?Curious indeed.Continuing ...

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The lithology of the lake sediments is varied and includes sandstones, mudstones, siltstones, oil shales, coal beds, saline evaporite beds, and a variety of lacustrine limestones and dolomites. Volcanic ash layers within the various sediments from the then active Absaroka Volcanic field to the north in the vicinity of Yellowstone and the San Juan volcanic field to the southeast provide dateable horizons within the sediments.

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The trona (hydrated sodium bicarbonate carbonate) beds of Sweetwater County, Wyoming are noted for a variety of rare evaporite minerals. The Green River Formation, is the type locality for eight rare minerals: bradleyite, ewaldite, loughlinite, mckelveyite-(Y), norsethite, paralabuntsovite-Mg, shortite and wegscheiderite. It also has a natural occurrence of moissanite (SiC) and 23 other valid mineral species.[2]

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How do you explain these different rock types and particularly the layers of volcanic ash within the varve layers?How do you explain the layers of evaporite minerals within the varve layers?It seems to me that these pesky details sure seem to contradict your claims for the geological formations in this area. How do you explain them?Continuing further ...

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The beds display a pronounced cyclicity, with the precession, obliquity, and eccentricity orbital components all clearly detectable. This enables the beds to be internally dated with a high degree of accuracy, and astrochronological dates agree very well with radiometric dates.[3]

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Note the correspondence with of layer times with radiometric dates. How do you explain this?Note that the areas of deposition shifted over the time period of deposition in a way that corresponds with astrochronological dates. How do you explain this?And finally ...

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Within the Green River Formation of southwest Wyoming in the area known as Fossil Lake, two distinct zones of very fine-grained lime muds are particularly noted for preserving a variety of complete and detailed fossils. These layers are an Eocene Lagersttte, a rare place where conditions were right for a rich accumulation of undisturbed fossils. The most productive zonecalled the split fish layerconsists of a series of laminated or varved lime muds about 6 ft (1.8 m) thick, which contains abundant fish and other fossils. These are easily split along the layers to reveal the fossils. This thin zone represents some 4000 years of deposition. The second fossil zone, the 18 inch layer, is an unlaminated layer about 18 in (46 cm) thick that also contains abundant detailed fossils, but is harder to work because it is not composed of fissile laminae.

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The limestone matrix is so fine-grained that fossils include rare soft parts of complete insects and fallen leaves in spectacular detail. More than twenty-two orders of insects are represented in the Green River collection at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., alone.

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Fish fossils of Diplomystus and Knightia are found in Fossil Lake but not in Lake Gosiute. Only Lake Gosiute has fossils of catfish (Ictaluridae and Hypsidoridae) and suckers (Catostomidae). The catfish are found mostly in the deepest parts of the lake.[4][5]

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The various fossil beds of the Green River Formation span a 5 million year period, dating to between 53.5 and 48.5 million years old.[6] This span of time includes the transition between the moist early Eocene climate and the slightly drier mid-Eocene. The climate was moist and mild enough to support crocodiles, which do not tolerate frost, and the lakes were surrounded by sycamore ( e.g. Platanus wyomingensis [7]) forests. As the lake configurations shifted, each Green River location is distinct in character and time. The lake system formed over underlying river deltas and shifted in the flat landscape with slight tectonic movements, receiving sediments from the Uinta highland and the Rocky Mountains to the east and north. The lagersttten formed in anoxic conditions in the fine carbonate muds that formed in the lakebeds. Lack of oxygen slowed bacterial decomposition and kept scavengers away, so leaves of palms, ferns and sycamores, some showing the insect damage they had sustained during their growth, were covered with fine-grained sediment and preserved. Insects were preserved whole, even delicate wing membranes and spider spinnerets.

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Vertebrates were preserved too, including the scutes of Borealosuchus the crocodile that was an early clue to the mild Eocene climate of Western North America. Fish are common. The fossils of the herring-like Knightia, sometimes in dense layers, as if a school had wandered into anoxic water levels and were overcome, are familiar to fossil-lovers and are among the most commonly available fossils on the commercial market. There were two genera of indigenous freshwater stingray, Heliobatis and Asterotrygon. Approximately sixty vertebrate taxa in all have been found at Green River. Besides fishes they include at least eleven species of reptiles, and some birds and one armadillo-like mammal, Brachianodon westorum, with some scattered vertebrae of others, like the dog-sized Meniscotherium and Notharctus, one of the first primates. The earliest known bats (Icaronycteris index,[8] and Onychonycteris finneyi[9]), already full-developed for flight, are found here. Even a snake, Boavus idelmani, found its way into a lake and was preserved in the mudstone.

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This formation/layer of the geological column in this area is from the Eocene Lagersttte period, so it fits within your "geological column/time scale" - yes? It is also adjacent to the Grand Canyon in location, on the land so it can't be in the wrong location nor is it small in area.You might remember that Notharctus is the genera at the top of the Pelycodus fossil chart: This all ties in with the spacial/temporal matrix of geology, geography and time that science has developed from the evidence. This all left a "continuous record of six million years" of evolution in this area ... how did the fossils get sorted by radiometric age? How did the radiometric isotopes get sorted with depth in the formation?The overall deposition was so gentle (" ... The limestone matrix is so fine-grained that fossils include rare soft parts of complete insects and fallen leaves in spectacular detail ...") that these fossils were not torn up. How does this mesh with your model for the formation of the "geological column/time scale" in this area?These are facts. Facts that need to be explained. Otherwise they destroy your model.Bada BOOMEnjoy

Denial of evidence is not how it is refuted. All you have here is opinion, and willful ignorance. The facts show otherwise.See Message 1017 for greater detail.Enjoy

Indeed. The whole world wide pattern could be integrated into a single model of geological deposition over time with an absolute timescale -- in effect the spacial/temporal matrix -- that covers the whole earth. Some strata would be seen in some areas but not others, and no single strata covers the whole earth in a single layer. The iridium layer comes closest, but it too is absent in some locations.This absence of different layers in different locations is, IMHO, one of the major problems with Faith's assertions.Enjoy

What you should have said: Although I can't see any rationale for excluding deposition at observed rates and locations from occurring, as that should not interfere with your model ... can you explain this? Again, what you should have said: How much area does your Geological Column cover? Can you show it on a map?Doesn't it extend to the area of the Green River Formation (see Message 1017)? The whole world is involved in self-deception but you? Wowsers.Enjoy

What about the Green River Formation -- Varves, Fossils, Time and Geological Columns? We can measure the uplift in many places, from the Grand Canyon to Mt Everest, and we find that the rate of uplift is consistent with the rise of mountains. Plate Tectonics explains this process in great detail, as well as earthquakes and volcanoes, things like the Hawaiian Islands and the ages of the different islands.Enjoy

Why not? Be specific. What stops the sea floor from being uplifted?There is evidence of uplift and depression along sea coasts, raising and lowering the land relative to the sea level. When uplifted, what was underwater becomes land. Some yes, some no. They have been ongoing since the formation of the earth 4.5+ billion years ago.The Baja peninsula is in the process of separating from the mainland:

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The Baja California Peninsula was once a part of the North American Plate, the tectonic plate of which mainland Mexico remains a part. About 12 to 15 million years ago the East Pacific Rise began cutting into the margin of the North American Plate, initiating the separation of the peninsula from it. Spreading within the Gulf of California consists of short oblique rifts or ridge segments connected by long northwest trending transform faults,[3] which together comprise the Gulf of California Rift Zone. The north end of the rift zone is located in the Brawley seismic zone in the Salton Sea basin between the Imperial Fault and the San Andreas Fault.[3] The Baja California Peninsula is now part of the Pacific Plate and is moving with it away from the East Pacific Rise in a north northwestward direction.

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This movement has been measured. The movement is a fact. It is a geological process that is ongoing today. You should have said: Because there is evidence of earthquake fault zones being buried by later deposition of sediments, so those fault lines do not extend to the full height of the modern day "stack" ...There is also evidence of volcanic ash layers between some layers, which also needs to be explained. And only rising through some of the layers before spreading out into large horizontal fields, not affecting layers above that (except at the contact zone of course).Now I noticed that you avoided the part of my message regarding: This is a question you need to answer. Is the Green River Formation area also part of your geological column or are you going to restrict your definition even further?Here's the map again: The Green River is a Tributary to the Colorado River, and this area is adjacent to the "Grand Canyon/Grand Staircase area" and there is no barrier I can see to exclude it from your "stack" concept.If it is, then you have several problems that are detailed in Message 1017 ...If it isn't then your stack only covers a small portion of North America, and then obviously it isn't representative of other areas of the US, so lack of deposition (growth of the "stack") in this restricted area does not mean that it is not ongoing elsewhere in the world.Enjoy

So your massive world wide flood dances across the surface of the earth leaving one kind of deposit here, another kind there, some parts bare, several times around to make layer after layer after layer ... and yet they all seem to stack up in vertical layers in each area without being distributed helter-skelter around the world.Fascinating.and totally unworkable.Enjoy